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 Post subject: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Zero Killer: Consecutive Fully Ordered Triple Diagonal 7

All cages are consecutive.
All are fully ordered so increasing from top to bottom and then from left to right.

There are three narrow diagonals.

I used a few small fishes - so probably above 1.0 - please comment on the difficulty as it helps me to judge the puzzles.



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Solution:
145378296
826914375
793562841
251489637
689753124
374126958
962845713
537691482
418237569


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Grand Master
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Thanks HATMAN for an interesting puzzle.

As I've noted in my walkthrough, one has to use all the information available; first time through I overlooked one important sub-step making things a lot harder later, so I've re-worked to include that sub-step in the correct position.

Here is my walkthrough for Consecutive, Fully Ordered, Triple Diagonal 7:
Red bordered cages are consecutive, fully ordered (CFO)

Prelims (the CFO cages on D\ are covered by step 1)
a) CFO cage at R1C9: no 8,9 in R1C9, no 1,9 in R2C8, no 1,2 in R3C7
b) CFO cage at R4C5: no 9 in R4C5, no 1 in R4C6
c) CFO cage at R4C8: no 9 in R4C8, no 1 in R5C9
d) CFO cage at R5C3: no 9 in R5C2, no 1 in R5C3
e) CFO cage at R5C7: no 9 in R5C7, no 1 in R5C8
f) CFO cage at R6C5: no 9 in R6C4, no 1 in R6C5
g) CFO cage at R7C3: no 8,9 in R7C3, no 1,9 in R8C2, no 1,2 in R9C1

1. The three CFO cages on D\ must be [123/456/789] -> R1C1 + R4C4 + R7C7 = {147}, R2C2 + R5C5 + R8C8 = {258}, R3C3 + R6C6 + R9C9 = {369}
1a. R2C2 + R5C5 + R8C8 = {258}, CPE no 2,5,8 in R2C8 + R8C2 using D/ R1C9
1b. R2C8 = {3467} -> CFO cage at R1C9 = [234/345/567/678], no 1,4,7 in R1C9, no 3,6,9 in R3C7
1c. R8C2 = {3467} -> CFO cage at R7C3 = [234/345/567/678], no 1,4,7 in R7C3, no 3,6,9 in R9C1

2. R6C4 = 1, R4C6 = 9 (hidden singles on D/), R4C5 = 8, placed for D\ R1C2 and D/ R1C8, R6C5 = 2, placed for D\ R2C1 and D/ R2C9
2a. R5C5 = 5, placed for both long diagonals -> R4C4 = 4, R6C6 = 6, both placed for D\
2b. Naked pair {37} in R5C46, locked for R5
2c. Naked pair {17} in R1C1 + R7C7, CPE no 1,7 in R1C7 + R7C1
2d. Naked pair {39} in R3C3 + R9C9, CPE no 3,9 in R3C9 + R9C3
[First time through, I overlooked the important step 2e until much later; I’ve re-worked with it in the right place, removing a heavy step after all the cages had been placed.]
2e. Naked pair {37} in R5C46, CPE no 3,7 in R3C4 using D\ R1C2, no 3,7 in R7C6 using D\ R2C1

3. The two CFO cages on D/ must be [234/678] -> R1C9 + R7C3 = {26}, R2C8 + R8C2 = {37}, R3C7 + R9C1 = {48}
3a. Naked pair {26} in R1C9 + R7C3, CPE no 2,6 in R1C3 + R7C9
3b. Naked pair {48} in R3C7 + R9C1, CPE no 4,8 in R3C1 + R9C7

4. R5C23 = [12/89], R5C78 = [12/89], naked quad {1289} in R5C2378, locked for R5
4a. CFO cage at R4C8 = [34/56], R4C8 = {35}, R5C9 = {46}

5. CFO cage at R1C1 = [123] or CFO cage = [789] => R5C23 = [12], CPE no 1 in R13C2 + R4C1, no 2 in R2C3 + R4C2

6. CFO cage at R1C9 = [234] => CFO cage at R4C8 = [56] or CFO cage at R1C9 = [678]
-> 6 in R15C9, locked for C9

7. CFO cage at R7C3 = [234] or CFO cage at R1C9 = [234] => CFO cage at R4C8 = [56] => R5C1 = 4
-> 4 in R59C1, locked for C1

8. CFO cage at R4C8 = [34] or CFO cage at R4C8 = [56] => CFO cage at R1C9 = [234]
-> 3 in R24C8, locked for C8
and 4 in R3C7 + R5C9, CPE no 4 in R23C9 + R6C7

9. CFO cage at R5C2 = [12] => CFO cage at R7C3 = [678] or CFO cage at R5C2 = [89]
-> 8 in R5C2 + R9C1, CPE no 8 in R6C1 + R9C2

10. CFO cage at R5C7 = [12] => CFO cage at R7C7 = [789] or CFO cage at R5C7 = [89]
-> 8 in R5C7 + R8C8, CPE no 8 in R6C8 + R8C7
and 9 in R5C8 and R9C9, CPE no 9 in R6C9 + R79C8

11. CFO cage at R5C2 = [12] => CFO cage at R7C3 = [678] or CFO cage at R5C7 = [12] => CFO cage at R7C7 = [789]
-> 7 in R7C7 + R8C2, CPE no 7 in R7C2 + R8C79
and 8 in R8C8 + R9C1, CPE no 8 in R8C3 and R9C8

12. CFO cage at R5C7 = [12] or CFO cage at R5C7 = [89] => CFO cage at R1C9 = [234] -> 2 in R1C9 + R5C8, CPE no 2 in R1C8 + R4C9

13. R5C8 = 2 (hidden single in N6), R5C7 = 1, R5C23 = [89], CFO cage at R1C1 = [123], CFO cage at R7C7 = [789]

14. R4C1 = 2 (hidden single in R4), R6C9 = 8 (hidden single in R6)

15. CFO cage at R4C8 = [34] or CFO cage at R4C8 = [56] => R4C7 = 3
-> 3 in R4C78, locked for R4 and N6

16. CFO cage at R7C3 = [678] or CFO cage at R7C3 = [234] => R5C1 = 6 -> 6 in R5C1 + R7C3, CPE no 6 in R4C3 + R78C1

17. CFO cage at R4C8 = [34] => R2C8 = 7 or CFO cage at R4C8 = [56] => R4C9 = 7
-> 7 in R2C8 + R4C9, CPE no 7 in R23C9 + R6C8

18. R4C9 = 7 (hidden single in N6)

[Just spotted …]
19. R7C3 = 2 (hidden single in R7) -> CFO cage at R7C3 = [234], CFO cage at R1C9 = [678], R5C19 = [64], R4C8 = 3

20. Naked pair {15} in R4C23, locked for R4 and N4 -> R4C7 = 6, placed for D/ R2C9
20a. R6C1 = 3 (hidden single in N4)
20b. Naked pair {59} in R6C78, CPE no 5 in R7C8 using D\ R1C2

21. 6 in R8 only in R8C45, locked for N8
21a. 6 in R2 only in R2C3456, CPE no 6 in R3C4 using D\ R1C2

22. 7 in C1 only in R38C1, CPE no 7 in R3C6 using D/ R1C8
22a. 8 in C1 only in R27C1, CPE no 8 in R7C6 using D\ R2C1
22b. 2 in C9 only in R38C1, CPE no 2 in R3C4 using D\ R1C2
22c. 3 in C9 only in R27C9, CPE no 3 in R7C4 using D/ R2C9

23. Naked pair {59} in R3C4 and R6C7, locked for D\ R1C2

24. Naked quad {1357} in R2C9 + R6C5 + R8C3 + R9C2, locked for D/ R2C9

25. R79C8 = {16} (hidden pair in C8), locked for N9 -> R8C9 = 2
25a. R8C7 = 4 (hidden single in N9), placed for D\ R2C1
25b. R7C5 = 4 (hidden single in N8)

26. Naked pair {15} in R4C3 and R7C6, locked for D\ R2C1 -> R9C8 = 6, placed for D\ R2C1, R7C8 = 1, R7C9 = 3, R9C7 = 5, R6C7 = 9, placed for D\ R1C2, R3C4 = 5
26a. Naked pair {79} in R3C2, locked for R3 and N1 -> R3C89 = [41], R2C9 = 5, placed for D/ R2C9

27. Naked pair {17} in R8C3 + R9C2, locked for D/ R2C9 and N7 -> R5C6 = 3

and the rest is naked singles, without using the diagonals.

Rating Comment:
I'll rate my walkthrough for Consecutive, Fully Ordered, Triple Diagonal 7 at 1.5. While each of my short forcing chains are Easy 1.5 steps, I used so many of them that I've got to go for the full 1.5. I used them in the order I spotted them until I found a useful hidden single; then I used some more until I found another useful hidden single.

Since this seems to be the first post on this site for 2014, Happy New Year to site owner Richard, moderator Ed, all the puzzle creators, who must be specially thanked for making this such an interesting site, and to all others who use this site!


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:53 am 
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Happy New Year to all of you.

Andrew some small comments on your walkthrough (which was quite a bit better than mine):

On 2e there are two more eliminations available as part of it (i.e. the other two corners) - but I do not think they make any difference to the solution.

11 is very good and seems to be the hardest move that you made.

15 was also good but if you put 19 (as perhaps you suggest) just after 14 would it be needed?

This was definitely my favourite of my posted puzzles for the year.

Cheers

Maurice


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Hey! Happy New Year's to you guys, and to all! It's been too long since I've checked in, but I'm overjoyed to see that you're continuing to innovate and puzzle.

I have a couple of questions about "narrow diagonals": 1) am I correct in assuming that they include 8 of the 1-9 numbers, but that we don't (initially) know which is the missing numeral?; and (2) aren't there FOUR "narrow diagonals" in the above puzzle - it looks like they start at R2C1(\), R1C2(\), R1C8(/), and R2C9(/).

Thanks, Hatman, I'm looking forward to giving this one a try!


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:50 pm 
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Azpaull

Yes there are 4 in this puzzle each of the four has a missing number - but there is no restriction on what number. I have done previous puzzles where the missing number has to be the same in each smaller diagonal. In all probability (in that case) the missing number is also in r5c5 but this is not forced (I still do not understand why this is the case - as it does not fit with {my view of} previous proofs on symmetry).

Cheers

Maurice

PS welcome back


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:54 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:04 pm
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Welcome back azpaull!

HATMAN has just commented about the missing numbers on the short diagonals.

Enjoy this puzzle!


Thanks HATMAN for your comments about my walkthrough. I agree with your comment about my step 2e; careless of me but I agree it probably didn't make much difference. I haven't yet checked what the effect would have been if I'd spotted my step 19 earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:28 am 
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Thanks, guys! And, another question came up: HOW the cages increase. For the top-to-bottom, for example, are the two cages that start in row 1 equal, is the R1C1 > R1C9, or do we not know only on the basis of the top-to-bottom piece of information?

And (I THINK this makes sense), is there a particular starting point for a cage that is used for determining the consecutive ordering? For example, on the left-to-right ordering, would the cage in nonet 3 be counted when encountering R3C7 or not until R1C9? (I'm pretty sure it would be the former, but I'd hate to be wrong on that!)

Sorry if these are silly questions, but I would hate to make assumptions and then waste all that solving effort!!!


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:39 pm 
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azpaull

I've done various versions of ordering but have decided to revert to standard killer ordering so for a fully ordered cage in r12c12 = [1234] would be r1c1=1, r1c2=2, r2c1=3 and r2c2=4.

I hope that this is clear.


Maurice


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Ohhhhhhhhh! The cages are consecutive and ordered within themselves. Maybe because of the "Greater Than Killer Sudokus" I've been doing at killersudokuonline.com, I was assuming you meant that the cages were consecutive and ordered in relation to each other! (Thus, my reference comparing the cages starting at R1C1 and R1C9.)

Sorry for my confusion - if I had been here when you first started this innovation, you probably explained it back then. I wouldn't expect you to have to fully explain it for every subsequent puzzle! My bad!

NOW I feel ready to take this on! (Though I haven't yet broken through on Assassin 281.)


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 Post subject: Re: C FO 3X 7
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:19 am 
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I enjoy those as well: takes us back to the "lady of killers".


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