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Paper Solvable 5 Zero X http://www.rcbroughton.co.uk/sudoku/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=848 |
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Author: | HATMAN [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
PS 5 - Zero X Killer This has both types of zero: areas with no cages and cages with no sum. I do not know how to enter zero cages into SudokuSolver so I am unsure of the score, but I have managed it on paper. JS Code 3x3:d:k:1:3078:3078:5135:18:19:3333:3333:4:3078:1:5135:5135:20:21:22:4:3333:3078:23:1:1:5898:4:4:5134:3333:24:25:1:5898:4361:3852:4:5134:5134:26:27:5898:2827:4361:3852:3852:2321:2321:28:29:2:2827:4361:30:3:5389:5389:3336:31:2:2:32:3:3:5389:3079:3336:2:5136:5136:33:34:35:3:3079:2:3336:3336:5136:36:37:3079:3079:3: |
Author: | Andrew [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
Thanks HATMAN for another fun puzzle. Cages without totals are an interesting concept! They proved useful in the later stages of my solving path. I solved it by elimination solving although many of the steps are essentially paper solvable ones; for example step 2 since the follow-ups from Prelims (in step 1) can be easily visualised. Also I think that steps 7 and 11 are essentially paper solvable, and also human solvable, steps. I was going to use one 45 but then spotted the clash in step 16 and found that the 45 wasn't needed. Rating Comment: Here is my walkthrough: Solution: |
Author: | HATMAN [ Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
I think cages without totals were started a couple of years ago by Mike-Japan (another lost voice). Note that your definition of paper-solvable is higher than mine, I'm looking for around 0.75 but definitely below 1.0. Of course we all see different things in a puzzle and I know by know that my "vision" is somewhat different to others. Apologies for not responding to your PM, I was in Nigeria and workload (for once positive) prevented me checking in regularly. For the corner lace with Windoku r1c2=r2c4, r2c1= r4c2 and r1c5r5c1 = r2c3r3c2 with these relationships in place both of the lace practice ones rattle out. |
Author: | Andrew [ Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
Thanks for those comments. Assuming that you are referring to the same cage interactions as I did in my rating comment, I think that steps can be Paper Solvable and still rated higher than 1.0. The interactions in my steps 7 and 11 were definitely paper solvable ones. I assume that they were the key steps for this puzzle. If there was something easier which I missed, I'd be interested to know. Thanks also for the comments about the Lace Windokus. I've also had helpful discussions about those with Ed and Simon by PM. Thanks guys. |
Author: | simon_blow_snow [ Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
To me, "Paper Solvable" means you can solve it without using any pencilmarks. When I went through Andrew's walkthrough (briefly), I really could not see how a player can follow it without listing out the pencilmarks. Below I will include a walkthrough, which I think one can follow it without listing pencilmarks. However one may need to jot down some (very few) small notes on the side to keep track of some tiny details. I would urge the readers to try to follow this walkthrough by actually create a blank 9x9 grid on paper (you can draw it by hand if you don't want to use the printer), and try to fill in the 81 cells one by one while following this walkthrough. You can also have the image of this puzzle on the computer screen as a reference. Please don't list any pencilmark, and if you find any particular gap in the walkthrough that needs more elaboration, please do post a comment, I will try to fill in the gap. Here is my walkthrough (9 steps with a big step 5): (Revised step 5b for better min-max analysis) Note that when solving without pencilmarks it is not very often to use naked singles or subsets. In the puzzle I just used one naked single, which should be easy to spot on paper at that stage. Also I used a lot of cage sums min-max analysis, which I believe HATMAN would consider appropriate as a Paper Solving techniques because the cage sums are all we have recorded on the grid when solving without pencilmarks. |
Author: | Andrew [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
Well done Simon for posting a genuinely "Paper Solvable" walkthrough. I assume that steps where one combination is listed for a cage are written as notes outside the grid, what I call pencilmarks (see below), and only actual placements are written in the cells of the grid. I liked the 3rd line of step 3. I wish I'd spotted that step; it would have simplified my solving path a bit. Further Rating Comment: Simon wrote: To me, "Paper Solvable" means you can solve it without using any pencilmarks. When I went through Andrew's walkthrough (briefly), I really could not see how a player can follow it without listing out the pencilmarks. I take a broader view of "Paper Solvable". While it means that it can be solved without using pencilmarks (in your use of that term) I take it as meaning an easier puzzle which can be solved that way if one wishes. I use a sort of "paper solvable" approach on another sudoku site although not as rigorously as in Simon's walkthrough.If HATMAN, or anyone else posting "Paper Solvable" puzzles, would prefer that they should only be solved that way then I'll limit myself to brief posts about them, without a walkthrough, unless I'm able to find a "paper solvable" solving path. BTW How did the term pencilmarks become a word meaning some/all candidates written in the cells of a sudoku grid? Candidates seems to me a much more appropriate term. When I first saw the phrase pencilmarks I assumed it referred to notes written outside the grid; I was therefore very surprised when I later discovered that many people use it to mean candidates. Also how did the term player get introduced in the context of sudokus? In my opinion solver is far more appropriate for sudukos, crossword puzzles, etc. Player implies playing, either individually or in a team, against opponent(s). I consider myself to be a solver so I trust that nobody will ever refer to me as a player. |
Author: | simon_blow_snow [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
I think the term "pencilmark" originated from the Sudoku Players' Forum, used to be in http://www.sudoku.com and now in http://forum.enjoysudoku.com. Obviously the term "players" also came from there. Other similar forums such as the Sudoku Programmers Forum (in http://www.setbb.com) and another one (which no longer exists) used to have a certain group of common visitors, and they helped formulate a "standard terminology" in various places. |
Author: | HATMAN [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Paper Solvable 5 Zero X |
Simon I started these Paper Solvable for interesting puzzles that I can do on paper (including pencil-marks, but hopefully minimal). I am rather messy and for harder puzzles I have to do them on spreadsheet (developed on Udosuk's basis) or on JSudoku. For stronger solvers doing them without pencilmarks (Andrew note the sale of pencils with rubbers has jumped manifold since the re-introduction of Sudoku to the English speaking world) seems eminently sensible. Andrew A few posts ago I talked of using dots and dashes as pencilmarks but did not make myself fully clear. The approach is to only partially mark-up and works well with non-consecutive or anti-chess. When you derive non-obvious placement possibilities: put dots. When you derive non-obvious placement eliminations: put dashes. I'm just back in England for a few days awaiting my Nigerian visa. As you can imagine I am not enjoying the cold, however yesterday I had the pleasure of going to my grandson's second birthday. The difficulty was that I had to drive from London to Leeds and back which in snowstorms on English roads was not a pleasure. Tonight I go back to Africa; thankfully. Maurice |
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