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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:16 pm 
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I'll also thank Børge for his effort in producing the diagrams from http://www.killersudokuonline.com and also patterns 7, 8, 9 and 10.

I'd be happy attempting puzzles with any of those cage patterns. I'm happy with regular and irregular cage patterns, regular and irregular cages, large and small cages. For me puzzles should have useful opportunities to use the 45 rule, some of which will occasionally be hard to spot. Pattern 10 doesn't offer many opportunities for using the 45 rule, because of the disjoint cage at R1C9, although there are still potential innie-outie differences for C12 and for R89.

goooders wrote:
However by far the most interesting puzzles are those with large irregular cages because they are much more cerebral to solve(ie they are not just solvable by eliminate,eliminate).Good examples of such puzzles are weekly 228,238 and 240 from killersudokuonline.com(of the recent ones)
I certainly agree with "ie they are not just solvable by eliminate,eliminate", particularly if it means nibbling away making one candidate elimination at a time using combination/permutation analysis. I'll admit to doing that for some puzzles, but I try to avoid it when I can.

Hope these comments are useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:35 pm 
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The comments from goooders and Andrew again proves that taste differs.

Andrew wrote:
I'll also thank Børge for his effort in producing the diagrams from http://www.killersudokuonline.com and also patterns 7, 8, 9 and 10.
My pleasure. If you know how to operate JSudoku, producing the PS code for a Killer from an image takes approx. 2-3 minutes. My Excel Program makes a B/W diagram with "udosuk Style Killer Cages" virtually instantly (< 1 second). The colouring is probably what take the longest.


goooders wrote:
10 is great;8 and 9 are linear;thanks for spending so much time on this.
Andrew wrote:
I'd be happy attempting puzzles with any of those cage patterns. I'm happy with regular and irregular cage patterns, regular and irregular cages, large and small cages. For me puzzles should have useful opportunities to use the 45 rule, some of which will occasionally be hard to spot. Pattern 10 doesn't offer many opportunities for using the 45 rule, because of the disjoint cage at R1C9, although there are still potential innie-outie differences for C12 and for R89.
For Pattern 7 I have a V1 with SS score 1.18 and a V2 with 1.82, plus 11 easier ones. I will pick one of the easier ones at around 0.80 and post a three puzzle Assassin.

In addition I will see if JSudoku can generate some useful puzzles with Pattern 10, and if it can, post 1-3 of them also.
I have a quad-core PC with two 30" monitors, so I can have four JSudoku processes and a SudokuSolver "running in a corner" while doing something else, like reading a blog or an online newspaper.


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:59 am 
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For completeness I dont like the split cage in 10 which I overlooked.They are a pain because they destroy so many solving techniques both simple and the more advanced.Maybe this could be adjusted.


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:47 am 
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goooders wrote:
For completeness I dont like the split cage in 10 which I overlooked.They are a pain because they destroy so many solving techniques both simple and the more advanced.Maybe this could be adjusted.
The most obvious quick fix is the following "Zero Killer". It unfortunately still leaves one small diagonally connected cage in N7.
Is this acceptable?

Pattern 11     The shown puzzle is only an illustration. It is NOT a valid puzzle.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:35 pm 
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That's fine.There is no inherent problem with diagonally connected cages until they spread over more than one nonet.Just two bits is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:04 am 
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I agree with goooders; pattern 11 is a big improvement on pattern 10.

It is, of course, an impossible puzzle since 2 outies from C1 or R9 can't total 23. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:14 pm 
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HERE Andrew wrote:
I've never downloaded any solver so have no experience of using them..
You don't know all the fun you miss out on:     Image

Andrew wrote:
It is, of course, an impossible puzzle since 2 outies from C1 or R9 can't total 23. ;)
When you draw a cage layout with JSudoku, it does not care too much about the validity of the puzzle, and tends to give all cages the same sum. It will however give you a PS code for the puzzle. If you paste this PS code into SudokuSolver it protests wildly:
Image

That's how I knew that Pattern 10, and hence also Pattern 11 are not valid puzzles.
JSudoku first protest when you try to solve the puzzle.


Last edited by Børge on Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Nice Smiley, Børge!


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 Post subject: Re: Assassin 201
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:23 pm 
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simon_blow_snow wrote:
Guess I should post my walkthrough for v2 to complete the series. ;-)
Nice solving path, Simon!

My solving path was basically the same as Simon's until the end of his step 9 but I didn't spot his step 10, even though it's the same type of logic as his step 3 (my step 13). I therefore found myself having to work harder, and in a different area of the puzzle, to make my final breakthrough.

Rating Comment:
I'll rate my walkthrough for A201 V2 at least Hard 1.5, because of my steps 36 and 37. If I'd found Simon's step 10, then I'd rate it at 1.5 because of the two Locking Cages steps. My step 35 is probably also a 1.5 step. I kept it in because it's interesting although probably not needed; I was struggling to make progress at that stage.

I'm surprised that the SS score is so much higher.

Here is my walkthrough for A201 V2.

Prelims

a) 7(3) cage in N1 = {124}
b) 21(3) cage in N3 = {489/579/678}, no 1,2,3
c) 19(3) cage at R2C5 = {289/379/469/478/568}, no 1
d) 19(3) cage at R2C6 = {289/379/469/478/568}, no 1
e) 9(3) cage at R3C6 = {126/135/234}, no 7,8,9
f) 11(3) cage at R5C2 = {128/137/146/236/245}, no 9
g) 11(3) cage in N7 = {128/137/146/236/245}, no 9
h) 23(3) cage in N7 = {689}
i) 22(3) cage in N9 = {589/679}
j) 12(4) disjoint cage at R1C5 = {1236/1245}
k) 30(4) cage in N5 = {6789}
l) 14(4) cage at R6C1 = {1238/1247/1256/1346/2345}, no 9

Steps resulting from Prelims
1a. Naked triple {124} in 7(3) cage, locked for N1
1b. Naked triple {689} in 23(3) cage, locked for N7
1c. 22(3) cage in N9 = {589/679}, 9 locked for N9
1d. 12(4) disjoint cage at R1C5 = {1236/1245}, CPE no 1,2 in R5C5
1e. 30(4) cage in N5 = {6789}, locked for N5

2. 45 rule on N1 3 innies R2C3 + R3C23 = 23 = {689}, locked for N1

3. 45 rule on N5 4 outies R37C5 + R5C37 = 30 = {6789}
3a. Naked quad {6789} in R5C3467, locked for R5
3b. Naked quad {6789} in R3467C5, locked for C5

4. 12(4) disjoint cage at R1C5 = {1245} (only remaining combination), no 3, CPE no 4,5 in R5C5 -> R5C5 = 3

5. 19(3) cage at R2C5 = {289/469/478/568} (cannot be {379} because R2C5 only contains 2,4,5), no 3
5a. R2C5 = {245} -> no 2,4,5 in R3C4 + R4C3

6. Naked quad {6789} in R3C2345, locked for R3, 7 also locked for N2
6a. Naked quad {6789} in R2345C3, locked for C3, 7 also locked for N4

7. 19(3) cage at R2C6 = {289/379/469/478/568}
7a. R3C7 = {2345} -> no 2,3,4,5 in R2C6 + R4C8

8. 45 rule on N7 3 innies R7C23 + R8C3 = 11 = {137/245}
8a. 7 of {137} must be in R7C2 -> no 1,3 in R7C2

9. 45 rule on N9 2 outies R6C9 + R9C6 = 1 innie R7C7 + 10
9a. Min R6C9 + R9C6 = 11, no 1 in R6C9 + R9C6
9b. Max R6C9 + R9C6 = 17 -> max R7C7 = 7

10. 25(4) cage at R1C4 = {2689/3589}, no 1,4

11. 45 rule on N3 2 outies R1C6 + R4C9 = 1 innie R3C7 + 4
11a. Max R3C7 = 5 -> max R1C6 + R4C9 = 9, no 9 in R1C6 + R4C9

12. 45 rule on N7 2 outies R6C1 + R9C4 = 1 innies R7C3 + 3
12a. Max R7C3 = 5 -> max R6C1 + R9C4 = 8, no 8 in R6C1 + R9C4

13. 7 in R3 only in R3C45, 7 in C3 only in R45C3 -> 19(3) cage at R2C5 and R3C5 + R5C3 must both contain 7 (locking cages)
13a. 19(3) cage at R2C5 (step 5) = {478} (only remaining combination containing 7) -> R2C5 = 4, R3C4 + R4C3 = {78}, CPE no 8 in R3C3
13b. R3C5 + R5C3 contain 7, locked for 45(9) cage at R3C5, no 7 in R5C7 + R7C5
13c. 12(4) disjoint cage at R1C5 (step 4) = {1245}, 4 locked for R5

[I can see, from interactions between the 12(4) disjoint cage at R1C5, C5 and R5 that R5C28 + R8C5 must form a naked triple {125} but at the moment I can’t see how I can make use of this.]

14. 17(3) cage at R2C4 = {269/359/368} (cannot be {458} because R3C3 only contains 6,9), no 1,4
14a. 4 in C2 only in R678C2, CPE no 4 in R7C3

15. 9(3) cage at R3C6 = {126/135/234}
15a. 4,6 of {126/234} must be in R4C7 -> no 2 in R4C7

16. 45 rule on N3 3 innies R2C7 + R3C78 = 12 = {129/138/156/237/246/345} (cannot be {147} which clashes with 21(3) cage)
16a. 6,7,8,9 only in R2C7 -> no 1,2 in R2C7

17. 25(4) cage at R1C4 (step 10) = {2689/3589}
17a. 8 in N1 only in R2C3 + R3C2, locked for 25(4) cage -> no 8 in R1C4 + R4C1
17b. 8 in C1 only in R89C1, locked for N7
17c. 8 in R1 only in R1C6789, CPE no 8 in R2C7

18. 17(3) cage at R6C2 = {179/269/278/359/368/458} (cannot be {467} because R7C3 only contains 1,2,3,5)
18a. 1,2 of {179/269/278} must be in R7C3 -> no 1,2 in R6C2 + R8C4

19. 11(3) cage at R5C2 = {128/137/146/236/245}
19a. 6,7,8 only in R7C4 -> no 1,3 in R7C4

20. 14(4) cage at R6C1 = {1247/1256/1346/2345}
20a. R7C23 + R8C3 (step 8) = {137/245}
20b. R7C2 + R8C3 cannot contain both of 3,7 (from combinations of 14(4) cage at R6C1) -> no 1 in R7C3
20c. 1 of {137} must be in R8C3 -> no 3 in R8C3
20d. R7C3 = {235} -> R7C2 + R8C3 = {17/24/45}
20e. 14(4) cage at R6C1 = {1247/2345} (cannot be {1256/1346} which aren’t consistent with the combinations for R7C23 + R8C3), no 6
20f. {1247} can only be [1247/1427/2714/4712] (because of step 20d) -> no 1 in R9C4
20g. 1 in C4 only in R46C4, locked for N5

21. R489C1 = {689} (hidden triple in C1)
21a. 25(4) cage at R1C4 (step 10) = {2689} (only remaining combination, cannot be {3589} because 3,5 only in R1C4) -> R1C4 = 2
21b. 2 in C5 only in R89C5, locked for N8
21c. 6 in R1 only in R1C6789, CPE no 6 in R2C7
21d. 9 in R1 only in R1C789, locked for N3

22. 14(4) cage at R6C1 (step 20e) = {1247/2345}, CPE no 2 in R7C1
22a. {1247} = [1247/1427/2714] (step 20f), 4 of {2345} must be in R7C2 + R8C3 (step 20d) -> no 4 in R6C1
22b. 14(4) cage = {1247/2345}, CPE no 4 in R9C3

23. Naked quad {6789} in R4C1358, locked for R4

24. R369C2 = {689} (hidden triple in C2)

25. 4 in C2 only in R78C2, locked for N7
25a. 11(3) cage in N7 = {137/245}
25b. 4 of {245} must be in R8C2 -> no 2,5 in R8C2
25c. 2 of {245} must be in R9C3 -> no 5 in R9C3
25d. R7C23 + R8C3 (step 8) = {137/245}
25e. 4,7 only in R7C2 -> R7C2 = {47}
25f. 2 in N7 only in R789C3, locked for C3

26. 14(4) cage at R6C1 (step 20e) = {1247/2345}, CPE no 4 in R7C46

27. 9(3) cage at R3C6 = {135/234}, CPE no 3 in R3C7

28. R2C7 + R3C78 (step 16) = {237/345}, no 1, 3 locked for N3 and 16(4) cage at R1C6, no 3 in R1C6 + R4C9
28a. 2 of {237} must be in R3C7 -> no 2 in R3C8
28b. 3 in R1 only in R1C12, locked for N1

29. 1 in N3 only in 12(3) cage = {129/156} (cannot be {147} which clashes with 21(3) cage), no 4,7,8
29a. Killer pair 2,5 in 12(3) cage and R2C7 + R3C78, locked for N3

30. R2C28 = {12} (hidden pair in R2)
30a. 12(3) cage in N3 (step 29) = {129/156}
30b. 6,9 only in R1C7 -> R1C7 = {69}

31. 11(3) cage at R5C2 = {128/137/146/236/245}
31a. 2 of {245} must be in R5C2 -> no 5 in R5C2
31b. 4 of {245} must be in R6C3 -> no 5 in R6C3
31c. Naked pair {12} in R25C2, locked for C2
31d. 5 in C3 only in R78C3, locked for N7, CPE no 5 in R8C4

32. 11(3) cage in N7 (step 25a) = {137} (only remaining combination), locked for N7 -> R7C2 = 4

33. 17(3) cage at R2C4 (step 14) = {359/368}
33a. R3C3 = {69} -> no 6,9 in R2C4

34. 17(3) cage at R6C2 (step 18) = {269/278/359/458} (cannot be {368} because R7C3 only contains 2,5)
34a. 8 of {278/458} must be in R6C2 -> no 8 in R8C4

35. Consider placements for 8 in N1
R2C3 = 8 => R4C3 = 7 => R3C4 = 8
or R3C2 = 8 => R3C4 = 7 => R4C3 = 8
-> 8 locked in R24C3, locked for C3 and 8 locked in R3C24, locked for R3
[I used forcing chains but this may be some sort of “fish”.]

36. 16(4) cage at R1C6 must contain 3 = {1348/1357/2356} (cannot be {2347} because R1C6 only contains 1,5,6,8)
36a. 3,4 of {1348} must be in R2C7 + R3C8 -> no 4 in R4C9
36b. 1,2 of {1348/1357/2356} must be in R4C9 (because {1357} => R2C7 + R3C8 = [73] => R3C7 = 2 (step 28) => R2C8 = 1, R3C9 = 5 => [1735] clashes with R3C9) -> no 5 in R4C9
36c. R4C9 = {12} -> no 1 in R1C6

37. 16(4) cage at R1C6 (step 36) = {1348/1357/2356} cannot be {1357}, here’s how
{1357} = [5731] => R1C5 = 1, 21(3) cage in N3 = {49}8, 4 locked for R1 => R1C3 = 1 clashes with R1C5 -> 16(4) cage = {1348/2356}, no 7
37a. 6,8 only in R1C6 -> R1C6 = {68}

38. 7,8 in N3 only in 21(3) cage = {678} (only remaining combination), locked for N3 -> R1C7 = 9, R2C8 + R3C9 (step 29) = {12}, locked for N3
38a. Naked pair {12} in R34C9, locked for C9

39. R1C3 = 4 (hidden single in R1)

40. R1C5 = 1 (hidden single in R1)
40a. Naked pair {25} in R89C5, locked for N8

41. R5C1 = 4 (hidden single in C1), R5C9 = 5, R9C5 = 2, R8C5 = 5, R8C3 = 2, R7C3 = 5

42. R3C1 = 2 (hidden single in C1), R2C2 = 1, R2C8 = 2, R34C9 = [12], R5C28 = [21]

43. 9(3) cage at R3C6 (step 27) = {135} (only remaining combination) -> R4C7 = 3, R3C6 = 5, R2C7 = 5, R3C78 = [43], R1C6 = 6 (step 37), R2C1 = 7, R46C6 = [42], R4C2 = 5, R1C12 = [53], R8C2 = 7

44. R2C4 = 3 (hidden single in R2), R3C3 = 9 (step 14), R9C3 = 7, R6C1 = 1 (step 20e)

45. 22(3) cage in N9 = {679} (only remaining combination) -> R7C9 = 7, R8C8 = 9, R9C7 = 6

and the rest is naked singles.


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