SudokuSolver Forum

A forum for Sudoku enthusiasts to share puzzles, techniques and software
It is currently Sun Apr 28, 2024 8:17 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:35 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Human Solvable 1

One of my interests (and I think Matt's) is creating human solvable puzzles that the programs have difficulty with. It is relatively easy with the exotic versions - JC has to work hard to keep up. However the challenge is with plain Killers.

This one is just an X. JSudoku uses about 25 fishes. SudokuSolver has difficulties with the centre crossover and putting the 10(3) as a hidden cage gives it a 2.8 using Bowman's Bingo (which I have not come across before and do not quite understand).

I've solved it without any fishes.
Hidden Text:
The ring and then N5


Now you can argue whether the human approach is T&E or "short consequential analysis" (SCA) {I've been looking for an appropriate phrase for a while) and this is probably the right forum to have the argument.

Anyway have fun with it.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:14 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 302
Location: Sydney, Australia
I did use a grouped turbot fish to crack this one:

Hidden Text:
After easy moves to set up the ring and n5 (using innies @ r5 & 10/3 @ /456):
Code:
     .         .         .     |     .         .         .     |     .         .         .
     .         .         47    |     69        .         59    |     37        .         .
     .         69        .     |     .         .         .     |     .         37        .
-------------------------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------------
     .         47        .     | 123456789     .        1234   |     .         59        .
     .         .         .     |   56789      4567     56789   |     .         .         .
     .         69        .     |   12345       .      1235689  |     .         47        .
-------------------------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------------
     .         58        .     |     .         .         .     |     .         69        .
     .         .         69    |     58        .         47    |     69        .         .
     .         .         .     |     .         .         .     |     .         .         .

Innies @ r5: r5c456 = 21 = {489|579|678}
10/3 @ /456 = {127|136|145|235}

=> 17/3 @ \456 = [746|458|269|962|476]

r2c3467 = [ 4957 | 7693 ]
r3467c2 = [ 9468 | 6795 ]
r3467c8 = [ 3976 | 7549 ]
r8c3467 = [ 6849 | 9576 ]

r46c2=[46|79] => \456 can't be [746]
r28c6+r4c2=[544|977] => r4c4+r5c456 can't be [4759|4957] => \456 can't be [458]

=> 17/3 @ \456 = [269|962|476] with 6 locked
=> 10/3 @ /456 = {127|136} with 1 locked
=> r5c456 = 21 = {579|678} with 7 locked
=> r46c46 = {2913|4612} with 2 locked

Innies @ c5: r159c5=17 => r19c5 can't have 5
13/3 @ r234c5: r4c5 from {34589} => r23c5 can't have 5
r28c6+r4c2=[544|977] => r4c4+r5c456 can't be [4579] => r5c456 can't be [579]
Code:
     .         .         .     |     .      12346789     .     |     .         .         .
     .         .         47    |     69     12346789     59    |     37        .         .
     .         69        .     |     .      12346789     .     |     .         37        .
-------------------------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------------
     .         47        .     |    249      34589      123    |     .         59        .
     .         .         .     |    789        67       578    |     .         .         .
     .         69        .     |    123      34589      269    |     .         47        .
-------------------------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------------
     .         58        .     |     .         .         .     |     .         69        .
     .         .         69    |     58        .         47    |     69        .         .
     .         .         .     |     .      12346789     .     |     .         .         .

5 @ c5 locked @ r4678c5

r2c6+r8c46=[584|957] => exactly one of r2c6+r8c4 must be 5

Grouped turbot fish:
n8: either r78c5 or r8c4 must not be 5 => either r46c5 or r2c6 must be 5 => r5c6 can't be 5

=> r5c456=[768|867]

The rest is trivial stuff.

751386249
234915786
698472531
147253698
923768154
865149372
382591467
576824913
419637825

Interested to know how you got around that move in your "no-fish" solving route. :geek:

_________________
ADYFNC HJPLI BVSM GgK Oa m


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:01 pm 
Offline
Addict
Addict

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 12:18 am
Posts: 62
I think there's also this. Step 1,2,3 are okay. Don't know if step 4 qualifies as the nicest logic, but it sounds a bit like the "short sequence analysis" mentioned.

Hidden Text:
1. 9 locked for R2 and N2 in R2C46
2. R46C5 = {45/38}: only options left with your 17(3), 10(3) and hidden 21(3) options, so R456C5 = {4[6]5} or {3[7]8}
3. R456C5 = [873] blocked by 15(3) R6C5: R78C5 can't equal 12, as 3, 7 and 8 are already used in C5.
4. R456C5 = [378] -> R5C4 = 9 -> R2C4 = 6: which leave no options for 13(3) at R2C5 as 6, is used in N2 and 7,8 in C5 and 9 was locked in step 1 and R23C5 can't equal 10 anymore.
5. This leaves: R456C5 = {4[6]5}


This is how i broke N5 at least.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:04 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Afmob - PS code as requested:
3x3:d:k:6401:1808:6401:4372:4372:4372:6404:2567:6404:1808:6401:3343:3343:3350:3078:3078:6404:2567:6401:3342:6401:25:3350:26:6404:3077:6404:27:3342:28:4373:3350:2584:29:3077:30:3601:3601:3601:31:4373:32:2578:2578:2578:33:3596:34:2584:3863:4373:35:3336:36:6403:3596:6403:37:3863:38:6402:3336:6402:1549:6403:3595:3595:3863:3337:3337:6402:1290:6403:1549:6403:4115:4115:4115:6402:1290:6402:
Apologies, I'm used to doing the wierder versions that do not have the code.

Matt a couple of points:

Hidden Text:
r8c46 = 12(2) r159c5 =17(3) r5c5 = 7 conflicts with C5 as if 7 on N5/R5 analysis r46c5 = {45}


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:26 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 302
Location: Sydney, Australia
HATMAN wrote:
Matt a couple of points:

Hidden Text:
r8c46 = 12(2) r159c5 =17(3) r5c5 = 7 conflicts with C5 as if 7 on N5/R5 analysis r46c5 = {45}

After all my working shown above and all I get is this one-liner? Very disappointed. :rambo:

No it doesn't make a single bit of sense to me at all. Not motivated to decipher the cryptogram anyway. I have more interesting riddles to crack than this. :evil:



BTW Para thanks for your moves. It does make sense, though I also think step 4 is not the most elegant logic out there. :ugeek:

_________________
ADYFNC HJPLI BVSM GgK Oa m


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:52 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Sorry Matt I was in a rush at the time. I'll post more fully later.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:36 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Matt my previous message was was not just cryptic but wrong. I had been working and I checked in quickly, but my mind was on Chelski versus the Manx.
I used minimal T&E to clear 4,5 from r5c5 and was simliar to Para on clearing the 7. (Udosuk's walkthrough with my stuff in italics)


Hidden Text:
With the Ring in place
R2c6r4c8 = {59} -> r2c8r4c6 <> 59
62c8r8c6 = {47} -> r6c6r8c8 <> 47


Innies @ r5: r5c456 = 21 = {489|579|678}
10/3 @ /456 = {127|136|145|235}

=> 17/3 @ \456 = [746|458|269|962|476]

r2c3467 = [ 4957 | 7693 ] =79..
r3467c2 = [ 9468 | 6795 ] =69..
r3467c8 = [ 3976 | 7549 ] =79..
r8c3467 = [ 6849 | 9576 ] =69.. r8c46 = 12(2)

r46c2=[46|79] => \456 can't be [746] and <> [647] r6c6<>7
r28c6+r4c2=[544|977] => r4c4+r5c456 can't be [4759|4957] => \456 can't be [458]
and <> [854] r6c6<>4

=> 17/3 @ \456 = [269|962|476] with 6 locked r5c5 = 6|7
=> 10/3 @ /456 = {127|136} with 1 locked
=> r5c456 = 21 = {579|678} with 7 locked
=> r46c46 = {2913|4612} with 2 locked
At this stage Matt has reduced to r5c5 to 6/7 without any hint of T&E (mine was sort of T&E)
innies on C5 -> r159c5 = 17/3
If r5c5 =6 r46c5 = {46} r5c46 = {78} r4c6r6c4 = {13} r4c4r6c6 = {29}
If r5c5 =7 r46c5 = {38} r5c46 = {59} r4c6r6c4 = {12} r4c4r6c6 = [46]
-> c5 <>38 r19c5 = {46}|[19] but r1c456 <>9 hence <> {179} -> r1c5<>1 -> {46} but r234c5 = {23}8 | {14}8 | {46}3 | {28}3 | {19}3 all these conflict with the {46} in r19 or the 3|8 in r6 so fail-> r5c5 =6
This is the same as Para’s approach so is it SCA or T&E?
Simple from here


corrected and clarified given Matt's comment


Last edited by HATMAN on Sat May 31, 2008 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:04 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 302
Location: Sydney, Australia
HATMAN wrote:
... but my mind was on Chelski versus the Manx.

That makes 2 of us! :mrgreen:

HATMAN wrote:
Hidden Text:
...
At this stage Matt has reduced to r5c5 to 6/7 without any hint of T&E (mine was sort of T&E)
If r5c5 =6 r46c5 = {46} r5c46 = {78} r4c6r6c4 = {13} r4c4r6c6 = {29}
If r5c5 =7 r46c5 = {38} r5c46 = {59} r4c6r6c4 = {12} r4c4r6c6 = [46]
-> c5 <>38 r19c5 = {46}|[19] but r1c456 <>9 -> r1c5<>1 ->{46} but r234c5 = {46}5
-> r5c5 =6
This is the same as Para’s approach so is it SCA or T&E?
Simple from here

Hidden Text:
Now that you've locked the 9 @ r2,n2 @ r2c46,
if r5c5=7 => r46c5={38}, r19c5=17-7=10 (=> 13/3 @ r234c5=[463|643|148|418])
But 9 @ n2 locked @ r2c46 so r1c5 can't be 9
Also 17/3 @ r1c456 can't be {179} so r1c5 can't be 1
=> r19c5={46} => 13/3 @ r234c5 must be from {12358}={238} => contradicts r46c5={38}
Therefore r5c5 can't be 7, must be 6.

Your "but r234c5 = {46}5" looks completely non-understandable to me. :scratch:

Still recovering from the booze? :drunk:

_________________
ADYFNC HJPLI BVSM GgK Oa m


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:21 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 310
Location: MV, Germany
Finally a long walkthrough :cheesey: because my present wts kept getting shorter and shorter. But this difficult Killer deserves a long walkthrough.

Like the other guys I started with setting up the ring and then worked on N5 but after that I took a different path which is longer but I think technically easier: Hidden Killer Pairs in D/ and Outies of D/ to fix 10(2) in N3.

I also used many chains so my walkthrough might deserve a 2.0 rating but those chains were established between 2-valued cells or cages with 2 combos so you kinda get drawn to them.

Here is the PS Code for people using SumoCue: 3x3:d:k:6400:1793:6400:4355:4355:4355:6406:2567:6406:1793:6400:3339:3339:3341:3086:3086:6406:2567:6400:3347:6400:21:3341:23:6406:3097:6406:27:3347:29:30:3341:2592:33:3097:35:3620:3620:3620:39:2592:41:2602:2602:2602:45:3630:47:2592:3889:50:51:3380:53:6454:3630:6454:57:3889:59:6460:3380:6460:1599:6454:3649:3649:3889:3396:3396:6460:1351:6454:1599:6454:4171:4171:4171:6460:1351:6460:
Note that it doesn't include the 17(3) cage in N5.

Human Solvable 1 (HS 1) Walkthrough:

1. N39
a) Innies N3 = 10(2) = {37} locked
b) Outies N3 = 14(2) = {59} -> CPE: R2C8+R4C6 <> 5,9
c) Innies N9 = 15(2) <> 4,5
d) Outies N9 = 11(2) <> 8,9

2. R58+N5
a) Innies R5 = 21(3) <> 1,2,3; R5C46 <> 4 because R5C5 <> 8,9
b) 10(3) @ N5: R4C6+R6C4 <> 6,7 because R5C5 >= 4
c) Killer pair (58) of 14(2) blocks {58} of 13(2)
d) Killer pair (69) locked in 14(2)+13(2) for R8

3. N1+R2+C2
a) Killer pair (58) of 14(2) blocks {58} of 13(2) @ C2
b) Killer pair (69) locked in 13(2) + 14(2) for C2
c) 7(2): R2C1 <> 1
d) Innies N1 = 13(2) <> 5,8
e) 13(2) @ R2 <> 5,8
f) Killer pair (79) locked in 13(2) + 12(2) for R2

4. C789 !
a) Innies N9 = 15(2): R7C8 <> 7
b) ! Innies+Outies N39: R28C7 = R46C8 -> R6C8 <> 5 since R28C7 cannot be 14(2)
c) 13(2) @ C8 <> 8
d) Innies N9 = 15(2) = {69} locked for N9
e) Outies N9 = 11(2) = {47} -> CPE: R6C6+R8C8 <> 4,7
f) Killer pair (79) locked in 12(2) + 13(2) for C8
g) 10(2) = {28/46}

5. R789 !
a) ! Innies+Outies N79: -2 = R8C46 - R7C28 -> R7C2 <> 6,9 because:
- R8C46 = 13(2) clashes with 13(2) @ R8
b) 14(2) @ R6C2: R6C2 <> 5,8
c) Outies N7 = 14(2): R8C4 <> 6,9
d) 14(2) @ R8: R8C3 <> 5,8

6. N5
a) 17(3) <> 1 because 7 in R5C5 forces 10(3) = {127}
b) 17(3) <> 3 because {359} forces Innies R5 = {579} and {368} forces Innies R5 = {678}
with 5/6 in R5C5
c) 17(3) <> {278} since 7 in R5C5 forces 10(3) = {127} -> 17(3) = {269/458/467}
d) 17(3): R4C4+R6C6 <> 5 because 4 of {458} would be in R5C5 which forces 10(3) = {145}
e) 10(3): R4C6+R6C4 <> 4 because 5 of {145} would be in R5C5 which forces 17(3) = {458}
f) 17(3): R4C4 <> 8 because R6C6 <> 4,5
g) 17(3): R4C4 <> 6 because R5C5 <> 2,9 and R6C6 <> 4,7

7. R123 !
a) Innies+Outies N13: 2 = R2C46 - R3C28 -> R2C3 <> 6 because
- R2C3 = 6 forces R2C46 = [79] -> not possible since R3C28 cannot be 14(2)
b) ! Innies+Outies N13: 2 = R2C46 - R3C28 -> R2C3 <> 9 because
- R2C3 = 9 forces R2C46 = [45] = 9(2) so that R3C28 = 7(2) = [43]
-> not possible since R4C2 = R4C8 = 9
c) 13(2) @ R2: R2C4 <> 4,7
d) Innies N1 = 13(2): R3C2 <> 4,7
e) 13(2) @ C2: R4C2 <> 6,9
f) 9 locked in R2C46 @ R2 for N2
g) 17(3) <> 1

8. R456 !
a) 13(2)+14(2) @ C2 = [6795/9468] -> R46C2 = [46/79]
b) ! 17(3): R5C5 <> 4 because R4C4+R6C6 = [76] is blocked by Killer pair (67) of R46C2
c) Innies R5 = 21(3) = 7{59/68} -> 7 locked for R5+N5
d) 10(3) @ N5 must have 5,6 xor 7 and R5C5 = (567) -> R6C4 <> 5
e) 14(3) <> 6 because {356} blocked by Killer pair (35) of 10(3) @ N6
f) ! 14(3) <> 1,5 because {149} blocked by Killer pair (49) of R46C2 and
{158} blocked by Killer pair (58) of Innies R5
-> 14(3) = 2{39/48} -> 2 locked for R5+N4
g) 10(3) @ N6 = 1{36/45} -> 1 locked for N6
h) Killer pair (49) locked in 14(3) + R46C2 for N4
i) ! Consider combos of 10(3) @ N6 -> R4C45 <> 9: (Grouped XY-Wing)
- i) 10(3) = {136} -> Innies R5 = {579} -> R4C45 <> 9
- ii) 10(3) = {145} -> R4C8 = 9 -> R4C45 <> 9
j) 9 locked in R4C789 for N6
k) 17(3): R6C6 <> 2 because R4C4 = (24)

9. N5+R28C28 !
a) Possible placements of 2-cell cages in R28C28 (R2-C8-R8-C2):
[4957]-[3976]-[6849]-[9468] / [7693]-[7549]-[9576]-[6795]
b) ! 17(3) <> 5,8 because [458] forces Innies R5 = {579} but at the same time
R4C2 = 7 -> so R28C6 = [97] (step 9a) -> Innies R5 not placeable
c) 17(3) = 6{29/47} -> 6 locked for N5+D\
d) 10(3) = 1{27/36} -> 1 locked for N5+D/

10. R6+N8
a) Naked pair (69) locked in R6C26 for R6
b) 9 locked R79C5 for N8

11. D/ !
a) 25(5) @ N7 = 37{159/168/249} since other combos blocked by 6(2)
b) 25(5) @ N3 can only have one of (48) because it's a Killer pair of 10(2)
c) ! Hidden Killer pair (48) in both 25(5) for D/ since neither of them can have both
-> 25(5) @ N7 = 37{168/249}
d) 5 locked in R1C9+R3C7 @ D/ for N3
e) Both 25(5) must have (48) @ D/ -> R1C7+R3C9+R7C1+R9C7 <> 4,8
f) Hidden Killer pair (37) in R7C3+R8C2+R9C1 for D/ since 10(3) can only have one of (37)
-> R7C1+R9C3 must have one of (37) since 25(5) @ N7 has 3 and 7
g) Outies D/ = 15(2+2): 1 locked in R1C7+R3C9 @ N3 = 1{2/6/9}
-> R7C1+R9C3 = 5/8/12(2) = {23/17/39} <> 6
h) 25(5) @ N7: R7C3+R8C2+R9C1 = {247/368/479}
-> 6 in D/ must be in 10(3) or 25(5) @ N7 -> R1C9+R2C8+R3C7 <> 6
i) ! Using step 9a) R2C3+R6C8 = 11(2) = {47} -> CPE: R2C8 <> 4 and R6C3 <> 7

12. N3+N7+D/
a) 10(2) = {46} locked for N3 because R2C8 = (28) blocks {28}
b) 25(5) @ N3 = {12589} -> 8 locked for D/
c) Hidden Single: R7C2 = 8 @ N7 -> Now using step 9a:
d) R6C2 = 6, R4C2 = 4, R3C2 = 9, R2C3 = 4, R2C4 = 9, R2C6 = 5, R2C7 = 7, R3C8 = 3,
R4C8 = 9, R6C8 = 7, R7C8 = 6, R8C7 = 9, R8C6 = 4, R8C4 = 8, R8C3 = 6

13. N58
a) 17(3) = [269] -> R4C4 = 2, R5C5 = 6, R6C6 = 9
b) Innies R5 = 21(3) = {678} -> R5C4 = 7, R5C6 = 8
c) 10(3) = {136} locked for N5+D/
d) R4C5 = 5 -> R23C5 = 8(2) = [17] -> R2C5 = 1, R3C5 = 7
e) 15(3) = {249} -> R6C5 = 4, R7C5 = 9, R8C5 = 2
f) 16(3) = {367} -> R9C5 = 3, R9C4 = 6, R9C6 = 7

14. N9
a) Hidden Single: R8C9 = 3 @ R8 -> R9C8 = 2
b) R2C9 = 6, R4C9 = 8
c) 25(5) = {14578} -> R7C9 = 7, R9C7 = 8; {145} locked for D\

15. Rest is singles without considering diagonals.

Rating: 1.75. I used lots of chains and some Hidden Killer pairs.


Last edited by Afmob on Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:49 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:33 am 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 302
Location: Sydney, Australia
Afmob wrote:
8e) 14(3) <> 6 because {356} blocked by Killer pair (35) of 10(2)

Should have been:
8e) 14(3) <> 6 because {356} blocked by Killer pair (56) of Innies R5

Afmob wrote:
8i) ! Consider combos of 10(3) -> R4C45 <> 9:
- i) 10(3) = {136} -> Innies R5 = {579} -> R4C45 <> 9
- ii) 10(3) = {145} -> R4C8 = 9 -> R4C45 <> 9

This is equivalent to:
grouped xy-wing:

10(3) @ R5C789 has 5|6
R4C8 has 5|9
Innies R5 @ R5C456 has 6|9
=> R4C45 can't have 9

I think HATMAN would consider this "fishy".

BTW I like your step 11. Longer than my grouped turbot fish but I guess it's more to HATMAN's taste of "no fish". :ugeek:

_________________
ADYFNC HJPLI BVSM GgK Oa m


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 66 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group