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 Post subject: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
HS3 X

Quite interesting JSudoku takes about 23 fishes (afmob points out that my version is not the latest, so) Sudoku Solver gives 2.01 with T&E which is very high, I'd put my solution below 1.0.

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3x3:d:k:2315:18:3330:3330:19:3329:3329:20:2313:2315:2315:21:22:3089:23:2313:2313:24:3331:25:2575:26:3089:27:2064:28:3336:3331:29:30:2575:31:2064:32:33:3336:34:35:36:37:38:39:40:41:42:3332:43:44:3853:45:3598:46:47:3335:3332:48:3853:49:50:51:3598:52:3335:53:2314:2314:54:55:56:57:2316:2316:2314:58:3333:3333:59:3334:3334:60:2316:


| 1 8 4 | 9 3 6 | 7 5 2 |
| 2 6 5 | 8 7 1 | 3 4 9 |
| 9 3 7 | 2 5 4 | 1 6 8 |
| 4 9 2 | 3 1 7 | 6 8 5 |
| 6 7 3 | 5 8 2 | 4 9 1 |
| 5 1 8 | 6 4 9 | 2 3 7 |
| 8 4 9 | 1 2 3 | 5 7 6 |
| 7 5 1 | 4 6 8 | 9 2 3 |
| 3 2 6 | 7 9 5 | 8 1 4 |


Last edited by HATMAN on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:15 pm 
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That was a very interesting puzzle, HATMAN. Thanks a lot! ;clapclap;

BTW, the code string doesn't work with SudoCue. Here's one that does:
Code:
3x3:d:k:2304:1:3330:3330:4:3333:3333:7:2312:2304:2304:11:12:3085:14:2312:2312:17:3346:19:2580:21:3085:23:2072:25:3354:3346:28:29:2580:31:2072:33:34:3354:36:37:38:39:40:41:42:43:44:3373:46:47:3888:49:3634:51:52:3381:3373:55:3888:57:58:59:3634:61:3381:63:2368:2368:66:67:68:69:2374:2374:2368:73:3402:3402:76:3405:3405:79:2374:

Solution:
184936752
265871349
937254168
492317685
673582491
518649237
849123576
751468923
326795814

My walkthrough isn't very nice because I used a chain.
Walkthrough:
HS3X Walkthough

0. Preliminaries
0a. 9(3) @ r1c1, r1c9, r9c1, r9c9 = {126|135|234} -> no 7,8,9
0b. 13(2) @ r1c3, r1c6, r3c1, r3c9, r6c1, r6c9, r9c3, r9c6 = {49|58|67} -> no 1,2,3
0c. 12(2) @ r2c5 = {39|48|57} -> no 1,2,6
0d. 10(2) @ r3c3 = {19|28|37|46} -> no 5
0e. 8(2) @r3c7 = {17|26|35} -> no 4,8,9
0f. 15(2) @r6c4 = {69|78} -> no 1,2,3,4,5
0g. 14(2) @r6c6 = {59|68} -> no 1,2,3,4,7

1. hidden killer pair {89} in 15(2) and r5c5 for D/ -> r5c5 = {89}

2. 7 locked in 10(2) for D\ -> 10(2) = {37} -> 3,7 locked for D\
2a. no 3,7 in r4c3 and r3c4
2b. no 4,5 in r2c1 and r8c9

3. 4 locked in r1c1 r2c2 r8c8 r9c9 for D\ -> either 9(3) @ r1c1 or 9(3) @r9c9 is {234}
3a. 45 on D\ (1 innie r5c5, 2 outies r2c1 r8c9) : r5c5 = r2c1 + r8c9 + 3 -> r2c1 + r8c9 = 5 or 6 -> r2c1 r8c9 = {23|33} (step 3)
3b. -> 3 locked in r2c1 r8c9 -> no 3 in r2c9 and r8c1

4. 45 on D/ (1 innie r5c5, 2 outies r2c7 r8c3) : r5c5 = r2c7 + r8c3 + 4 -> r2c7 + r8c3 = 4 or 5 -> no 5,6 in r2c7 and r8c3
4a. no 4 in r1c9 (blocked by r2c1)
4b. no 4 in r9c1 (blocked by r8c9)
4c. 4 locked in r8c2 r2c8 for D/ -> no 4 in r2c2 and r8c8
4d. -> either 9(3) @ r9c1 or 9(3) @r1c9 is {234} -> no 4 in r8c3 r2c7 (step 4)

5. 8,9 locked r5c5 r6c46 for n5
5a. 7 locked in r4c46 r6c4 for n5

6. 9(3) @r1c1 : no 2 in r1c1
6a. 9(3) @r9c9 : no 2 in r9c9
6b. 2 locked in r2c2 r8c8 for D\ -> no 2 in r8c2 r2c8

7. 45 on D/ (5 innies) : r9c1 r8c2 r5c5 r2c8 r1c9 = 22(5) = 4{1269|1359|1368|2358}
7a. 3 in r8c2 (only possible for {23458}) places 2 in r1c9 -> blocked by r8c9 -> no 3 in r8c2
7b. 3 in r2c8 (only possible for {23458}) places 2 in r9c1 -> blocked by r2c1 -> no 3 in r2c8

8. no 4 in r1c1
8a. r1c1 = 4 -> r2c23 = [32], r3c3 = 7, r4c4 = 3, r2c7 = 1 -> r8c2 = 4, r9c1 = 2, r8c3 = 3, r1c9 = 3, r2c8 = 5 -> can't place anything in 8(2) -> no 4 in r1c1
8b. -> r9c9 = 4, r8c89 = [23], r8c3 = 1 -> no 4 in r8c2, no 5,6 in r9c1
8c. -> r2c8 = 4, r2c7 = 3, r1c9 = 2, r9c1 = 3, r8c2 = 5, r2c1 = 2 -> no 5 in r1c1

9. 1,6 locked in r1c1 r2c2 for D\ and n1
9a. no 7 in r4c1 and r1c4, 14(2) in D\ = {59} -> r5c5 = 8
9b. 15(2) in D/ = {69}, 8(2) in D/ = {17}
9c. r34 : 7 locked in 10(2) and 8(2) for r34
9d. r67 : 9 locked in 15(2) and 14(2) for r67

10. cleanup: no 6 in r4c1, no 9 in r1c6, no 8 in r6c1, no 4 in r67c1, no 8 in r9c4, no 9 in r9c3467
10a. 13(2) @ r3c9 = {58} -> 5,8 locked for c9
10b. 13(2) @ r6c9 = {67} -> 6,7 locked for c9
10c. r67 : 6 locked in 15(2) and 13(2) @ r6c9 for r67
10d. -> r67c1 = [58], r6c6 = 9, r7c7 = 5, r6c49 = [67], r7c39 = [96], r9c34 = [67], r9c67 = [58], r9c2 = 2, r4c4 = 3, r3c3 = 7, r3c7 = 1, r4c6 = 7, r25c9 = [91]
10e. 13(2) @r3c1 = {49} -> 4,9 locked for c1
10f. r58c1 = [67], r7c2 = 4, r1c1 = 1, r2c2 = 6, r8c7 = 9, r79c8 = [71], r9c5 = 9
10g. r1c67 = [67], r8c5 = 6, r23c5 = [75], r34c9 = [85], r13c8 = [56], r1c34 = [49], r34c1 = [94], ...

the rest is singles

Hopefully someone can show me a solving path without a chain...

Edit: Typo corrected in 8b. Thanks, Andrew.

Cheers,

Nasenbaer


Last edited by Nasenbaer on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:05 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Nasenbaer
I used a chain myself, sketch of solution:

The puzzle was intended to revolve around r2c17r8c39
D/ complex HP 89 -> r5c5 = 8|9
Innies minus outies on D\ -> r5c5 - r2c1r8c9 = 3
Innies minus outies on D/ -> r5c5 - r2c7r8c3 = 4
if r5c5 = 9 r2c1r8c9 = [33]
-> r2c7r8c3 = {14} but which ever one is 4 must be part of 423
but r1c9r2c8r8c2r9c1<>3 -> r5c5 = 8
do naked and hidden pairs
r1c9r2c8r8c2r9c1 = 2... -> r2c7r8c3<>[22] -> {13}
r1c1r2c2r8c8r9c9 = {1246} -> r2c1r8c9<>{14} -> {23}
do naked and hidden pairs
r2c17r8c39 = [3132]|[2313]
but r3c3r4c4 = {37} and r3c7r4c6 = {17} -> r2c17<>[13]
r2c17r8c39 = [2313]

simple from here
How did you find the difficulty? It was very hard to create. I had the basic idea but more than ten attempts before I could get one that I could solve without the computer finding it easy.
I'll create some less taxing ones for now.
Hopefully someone will do it more neatly.

Maurice


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Grand Master
Grand Master

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:44 am
Posts: 310
Location: MV, Germany
Thanks for this interesting Killer!

Though all walkthroughs posted so far are quite short the moves themselves are advanced and therefore this Killer which probably needs chains should have a high rating (definitely not below 1.0). The most difficult move is step 2b.

HS 3 Walkthrough:

1. D\/
a) Hidden Killer pair in R5C5 for D/ since 15(2) can only have one of (89) -> R5C5 = (89)
b) 7 in D\ locked in 10(2) = {37} locked for D\, CPE: R3C4+R4C3 <> 3,7
c) Both 9(3) @ D\: R2C1+R8C9 <> 4,5 because 3 only possible there
d) Innies+Outies D\: -3 = R2C1+R8C9 - R5C5; R5C5 = (89)
-> R2C1+R8C9 = 5/6(1+1) = 3{2/3} -> CPE: R2C9+R8C1 <> 3
e) Innies+Outies D/: -4 = R2C7+R8C3 - R5C5 -> R2C7+R8C3 <> 5,6
f) Both 9(3) @ D/: R1C9+R9C1 <> 4 because {234} blocked by R2C1+R8C9 = (23)
g) 4 in D/ locked in R2C8+R8C2 -> CPE: R2C2+R8C8 <> 4
h) Both 9(3) @ D\: R1C1+R9C9 <> 2 because 4 only possible there

2. D\/ !
a) 4 in D/ must be in one of 9(3) -> one of 9(3) must be {234}
b) ! Innies+Outies D\: -3 = R2C1+R8C9 - R5C5 -> R5C5 <> 9 because
R2C1+R8C9 = {33} sees all 3 of both 9(3) @ D/
-> R2C1+R8C9 = {23} -> CPE: R2C9+R8C1 <> 2
c) R5C5 = 8
d) 14(2) = {59} locked for D\; CPE: R6C7+R6C7 <> 5,9
e) 15(2) = {69} locked for D/; CPE: R6C3+R7C4 <> 6,9

3. D\/
a) 7 in D\ locked in 8(2) @ D/ = {17} locked for D/; CPE: R3C6+R4C7 <> 1,7
b) Both 9(3) @ D\ = 2{16/34} -> 2 locked for R28 + N19
c) Grouped X-Wing (7) locked in 10(2) + 8(2) for R34
d) Both 13(2) @ R34 <> 6
e) Grouped X-Wing (9) locked in 15(2) + 14(2) for R67
f) Both 13(2) @ R67 <> 4
g) 12(2) <> 4 and R2C5 <> 5
h) Outies D/ = 4(1+1) = {13} -> CPE: R2C3+R8C7 <> 1,3

4. D\/ !
a) ! Consider candidates of R3C3 -> R2C1 <> 3
- i) R3C3 = 3
- ii) R3C3 = 7 -> R3C7 = 1 -> R2C7 = 3
b) R2C1 = 2
c) 9(3) @ N1 = {126} -> {16} locked for N1+D\
d) R8C8 = 2, R8C9 = 3, R9C9 = 4, R8C3 = 1
e) 9(3) @ N7 = {135} -> R8C2 = 5, R9C1 = 3

5. R6789+C9
a) 13(2) @ R3C9 = {58} locked for C9
b) 13(2) @ R6C9 = {67} locked for C9
c) Grouped X-Wing (6) in 15(2) + 13(2) @ R6C9 locked for R67
d) 13(2) @ R6C1 = {58} -> R7C1 = 8, R6C1 = 5
e) 13(2) @ R9C3 = {67} locked for R9
f) R6C6 = 9, R6C4 = 6, R9C4 = 7, R4C4 = 3, R3C3 = 7, R3C7 = 1, R2C7 = 3, R2C9 = 9

6. R123
a) R2C5 = 7 -> R3C5 = 5
b) 13(2) @ R1C3: R1C3 <> 8

7. Rest is singles without considering diagonals.

Rating: 1.5. I used combo analysis and a chain to crack this Killer.


Last edited by Afmob on Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:50 pm 
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HATMAN wrote:
How did you find the difficulty?

The path of solution was narrow and visible so there wasn't any time lost looking for new openings. But the actual moves to crack it were not easy, so I would go with Afmob's rating of 1.5.
Quote:
It was very hard to create. I had the basic idea but more than ten attempts before I could get one that I could solve without the computer finding it easy.

Yes, I believe that. My own experience shows me that this process can be really frustrating.
Quote:
I'll create some less taxing ones for now.

Hopefully not!
Quote:
Hopefully someone will do it more neatly.

Afmob's walkthrough is already neater than mine. But still some tough moves...

Cheers,
Nasenbaer


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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:04 pm
Posts: 1895
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
Afmob wrote:
... and therefore this Killer which probably needs chains should have a high rating (definitely not below 1.0).

Rating: 1.5. I used combo analysis and a chain to crack this Killer.
I haven't (yet?) tried this puzzle so just a comment on Afmob's rating statement. Mike has given the general view that puzzles that require chains should be rated at least 1.5. Also I've given the general view, in another thread, that any puzzle requiring elimination solving should be rated at least 1.0. That IMHO applies even when the SS score is just below 1.0.

My impression from reading the threads, although I haven't so far attempted the puzzles, is that all of HATMAN's Human Solvables are significantly harder than 1.0.


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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:22 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 302
Location: Sydney, Australia
This rating thing is a joke. :rambo: From now on (after this post) I've decided I'm not talking about any numerical rating anymore. Anyway, here is my walkthrough:


My walkthrough:
0. Prelim
All 9/3={126|135|234}
All 13/2={49|58|67}
12/2 @ r2c5={39|48|57}
10/2 @ r3c3={19|28|37|46}
8/2 @ r3c7={17|26|35}
15/2 @ r6c4={69|78}
14/2 @ r6c6={59|68}

1.
/567 form KHP {89} @ d/
=> r5c5 from {89}
=> 7 @ d\ locked @ 10/2 @ r3c3={37} (NP @ d\)
=> \1289 has no 3
=> 9/3 @ r1c1,r8c8 can't be [243|342|153|351]
=> r2c1,r8c9 can't have {45}

2.
Innie-outies @ d\: r5c5=r2c1+r8c9+3
=> r2c1+r8c9=5|6 from {1236}={23|33}
But 4 @ d/ locked @ /1289
=> one of 9/3 @ r1c9,r8c2 must be {234}
=> one of the 6 cells r1c9+r2c78+r8c23+r9c1 must be 3
=> r2c1+r8c9, seeing all these 6 cells, can't be {33}

3.
Now r2c1+r8c9={23}
=> r5c5=2+3+3=8 (NE @ d\/)
=> 15/2 @ r6c4 from {679}={69} (NP @ d/)
=> 14/2 @ r6c6 from {569}={59} (NP @ d\)
=> 7 @ d/ locked @ 8/2 @ r3c7={17} (NP @ d/)
Generalised x-wing: 7 @ r34,n5 locked @ \34+/34
Generalised x-wing: 9 @ r67,n5 locked @ \67+/67

4.
Outies @ d/: r2c7+r8c3=4={13|22}
But r2c1+r8c9={23} => r2c7+r8c3 can't be {22}, must be {13}
Now r3c37=[37|71]
=> r2c7+r8c3 can't be [13], must be [31]
=> r2c1+r8c9=[23]
=> 9/3 @ r1c9=[234], 9/3 @ r8c2=[513], 9/3 @ r8c8=[234]

5.
13/2 @ r3c9 from {5689}={58} (NP @ c9)
=> 13/2 @ r6c9={67} (NP @ c9)
Generalised x-wing: 6 @ r67 locked @ /67+r67c9
=> 13/2 @ r6c1 from {4578}=[58]
=> 14/2 @ \67=[95]
=> 15/2 @ /67=[69]
=> 13/2 @ r6c9=[76]
=> 13/2 @ r9c3=[67]
=> 13/2 @ r9c6 from {589}=[58]
=> 10/2 @ r3c3=[73]
=> 8/2 @ r3c7=[17]
=> r25c9=[91]
=> 13/2 @ r1c6 from {4678}=[67]
=> 9/3 @ r1c1=[126]
=> 12/2 @ r2c5=[75]
=> 13/2 @ r3c9=[85]
=> r13c8=[56]
=> 13/2 @ r1c3 from {489}=[49]
=> 13/2 @ r3c1=[94]

All naked singles from here.

The "experts" might rate my step 4 as 1.5 or 15.0 or whatever but for me the only "rating" is this:

EASY

It is EASIER than most recent assassins which were rated 1.25. So a rating of 1.5 looks ridiculous to me, no matter what the "experts" claim. End of argument. :evil:

Lastly, here is another curious observation about the puzzle:


My observation:
The 12/2 @ r2c5 could be changed to 9/2, 10/2 & 11/2, each with a different unique solution. The key thing is without that cage the puzzle has 4 solutions, each with a different value @ r3c5, a pretty interesting property.


(Edited: minor change in step 4 thanks to Andrew's suggestion on page 2)

_________________
ADYFNC HJPLI BVSM GgK Oa m


Last edited by udosuk on Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:43 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 694
Location: Saudi Arabia
Gentlemen (and Ladies observing)

I am very pleased with the argument about ratings. A(n)* Human Solvable is meant to be difficult for computers, but intuitive for human beings; therefore it should also cause difficulty for a formal rating system.

In this one you were meant to instantly see that the kernel of the problem was r2c17r8c39, but then to wonder how to attack it.

Given our history it is not surprising that Matt's solution was a much more acceptable (in a rigorous sense) version of mine - note he used X-wings which he knows are the only fishes I can do easily.


* depends on which version of English you use and your accent


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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:58 pm 
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I think in this puzzle you should quickly be able to see where the breakthrough move should be focussed around as there's so many things you just have to ignore at the start.
It's like puzzles where there's a shortcut to solve the puzzle quicker, except here the shortcut is actually the main path. No need to see things as chains or anything. Just a puzzle with a designed concept that should be considered for what it is: an intentional design.
I enjoyed it. Haven't really been thinking in ratings lately and haven't really been keeping up with all the talk. Just like to do puzzles for fun. Doing a lot more out of the sudoku community these days. Just enjoy the puzzles, guys ;). Keep 'm coming :)

Para


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 Post subject: Re: Human Solvable 3
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:16 am
Posts: 1044
Location: Sydney, Australia
HATMAN wrote:
A(n)* Human Solvable .....* depends on which version of English you use and your accent
Didn't know this. I'm definitely an "A" with this "Hu", but think I just use "an" with "hi" as in "historical". Both are becoming redundant here. The definite articles "the", "a" and "an" are all on the way out of the ( ;) ) Australian Broadcasting Corporation's (ABC) radio/TV news usage here in Australia. Very distracting and annoying.

Back on topic. I found HS3 quite inhuman. Had to keep coming back to it before finally seeing how to unlock it. It sure felt like a 1.5 rating to me since I couldn't find the key. From my recent form, I would have been quite annoyed with a lower rating than this!!

Thanks to those who give numerical ratings! Your ratings give me a guide with how I'm likely to find a puzzle. Spot on for this one. Also, once I've finished, I really like to know how others found it. Keep 'm coming :) .

Thanks HATMAN.

Cheers
Ed


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