SudokuSolver Forum

A forum for Sudoku enthusiasts to share puzzles, techniques and software
It is currently Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:16 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:06 pm 
Offline
Expert
Expert

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:07 am
Posts: 105
I thought I would make this issue a separate topic and not cloud the main JSudoku thread.

Hi,

I am having trouble generating puzzles in JSudoku that meet the criteria that I want. I would be most appreciative if anyone can offer any help or suggestions.

The attached file shows the techniques that I would like to see in Samurai puzzles. I went through a 1000 tries this afternoon (on a slow computer) and didn't get a generated puzzle.

During the past overnightand with the program trying (slow Win 98 computer) for an hour before I went to bed, I did find a puzzle when I woke up. When I checked the solution with JSudoku, the following techniques were listed:

3 Last Digit
180 naked Single
74 Hidden Single
1 X-Wing
1 Remote Pairs

I didn't even have remote pairs listed as a technique, so why was it used?

Is the JSudoku ER technique the same one Ruud has in the Sudopedia? Ruud had 500 ER puzzles that required the basic ER technique. This is what I am hoping the ER in JSudoku is like. I recall some discussion in the past the the ER in JSudoku may be more advanced. I just don't recall.

I am looking for guidance on how to generate puzzles with the techniques I like to use.

Thanks for reading this message.

Regards,
George
Attachment:
JSudoku Gen Settings.jpg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:44 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 868
Using almost the same solvers as you, but not exactly the same ones, I had a shot at this.
I added all Naked/Hidden Subset solvers without any restrictions (0-99), Intersection and Empty Rectangle without any restrictions (0-99) and minimum one X-Wing (1-99).
During lunch (< 40 min.) I got a puzzle requiring 1 X-Wing + 1 Skyscraper.

I assume that unless you explicitly set a technique/solver = 0, it might be used.
There are two ways to do this:
  1. Disable the solvers for the techniques you do not want in a puzzle (Solver tab to the right of the Log tab)
  2. In Options > Preferences... > Generator > Difficulty > Solvers list set all techniques you do not want in a generated puzzle = 0.

To speed up testing I did both.
To speed up puzzle generation I also minimized all other restrictions:
Number of guesses = 0-50 = FULL RANGE
Singles bottleneck = 0 = FULL RANGE
Symmetries = ALL
Number of givens = FULL RANGE
Overlapping grids = CAN HAVE GIVENS

Hidden Text:
Image
Hidden Text:
Image

You can find the .xml file (nj3h.xml) with these settings here:
http://cid-c136798e52d0119c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/SudokuSolver/nj3h/nj3h.xml

Import it into:
1) Solvers > Import Solvers' List...    (right click in the Solvers Tab Window)
Image
2) Options > Preferences... > Generator > Difficulty (Select Difficulty [gets a blue background] and click on the Folder icon now visible)
Image


Using these settings I went out for some outdoor activities. When checking two hours later I had the following Samurai puzzle.
It requires an X-Wing and an Empty Rectangle, but the X-Wing is a red herring:

100009020000107006800000400000010007038000000000800209084050000000300000026000000
090200006800105000004000007600090000000000860702003000000010790000007000000000520
000000000000070000000902000010000090000801000096000810000000000000308000000106000
030080000010020000050010000000400032001008000000600074009873000007000203103000700
000020060000030080000090010350007000000400500870009000000873600703000400006000803


To speed things up, I suggest you start with few requirements and increase them as you get experience.

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Normal: [D  Y-m-d,  G:i]     PM->email: [D, d M Y H:i:s]


Last edited by Børge on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:26 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 868
Here some more puzzles I generated using nj3h.xml on a 5-6 year old PC with a 3.2 GHz Pentium 4 CPU and XP Professional.
Generating each puzzle took < 2 minutes, but afterwards I saw that I had the X-Wing solver turned off.
Had forgotten to turn it on after checking if the puzzle in my previous post actually requires an X-Wing.

So it seems that generating a puzzle requiering an Empty Rectangle is faster than a puzzles requiring an X-Wing

914000000000200501050080900007002000000801200503009010030020000060000020000640000
305006000000021000018000600000100087406000050000205000000040705000000800000070001
000009000020006000000004000000000572000400000906010000000600000000000060000700000
008007000000809000024000000000300027037000000050008010100030802000650100602000000
000000060060700000000090780000827000504000800800050090000206005058000102000300008


063000000000513000000000084000805000080000930090030010100702000607000000000059000
350080000000060480906002030000000200000200045625040000000800700000900004000600102
000600000000004000000050000500000070600700300000020001000000000000000000000031000
014007000000020000002001000000000605207000090003700000000260107980000003020040000
000000800000230900000040000801009030500700080004008010010000002000960008047000000



This following puzzles were generated with the X-Wing solver turned on again.
Each puzzle took 2-4 min, to generate.

000804070314000000000010030005900000409000006000008400078060000000087000920000000
010605000000000163060010000000004300800000201009700000000020590000390000000000038
000807000000602000000501000408000301005000200900010004000060000000000000000050000
000079000005000000200050000010000080763000000000700300800000072090807000000200600
000130000000000900000020004090000080000000713006004000850000009000701030002006000


000600010003000026010905000309040000000800000006000842000007000850009000030008000
540000000000070400800020005000001040100205000003008509000100050000630000080000900
000006000000904000000000080040010802000209000570040000000600000008000000000400000
103020000700000008000008000000080670075000040000197000010006004000800200009005000
000000265000029000000600009007000800010003000030090010900200106400008000301000900


150000000800000206000809070004020001000901003002060500070004000009000000080190000
042001000000050030301060000030600005090000670000805000000000802000084007000000500
000006000000004000000019000000000632001000400973000000000260000000400000000900000
004000000700450000805000000000105000019000060400007050000070903090010000000300420
000013060000000800000700090009040500400509000600080400080406000503000002000000078


040030200000060073036020000000000042010400000070500001100003000600009000900001000
005090040980030000000050130720000000000005060800006020000400006000100005000500001
000000000000204000000701000063000720000906000041000830000000000000020000000080000
010002000029007000030009000000000940804500000006800020000048001503000000000030207
000900080000600250000200090012000000000003801030008900300890000000000309506070000


000030028000684000007000006020009000840000060070400103000002000400060000705008000
000176000040000100310000070002005004000900002104000803000090030000310000000000400
000090000000050000000840000006000008195000000000000102000003000000000000000604000
003002000029000000000604000900040030600000750700500000050008002008000300000435000
000000009000609080000400002091007000000000278020503000000070504050090000109040600


080070006600000450000530000004000619103005000006090300400700000030609000500200000
500070080027000005000061000234000900000700308006090200000005002000407090000009006
000000000000010000000703000003000700700302004008000200000904000000030000000000000
600900000090305000400700000008070400106009000003000962000850000800000620010090008
000001009000205030000007001008070100000800403439000600000036000051000004300050010

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Normal: [D  Y-m-d,  G:i]     PM->email: [D, d M Y H:i:s]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:28 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 868
I did another experiment:
In the Solvers Tab Window I turned the Empty Rectangle Solver off, but did no changes to "Options > Preferences... > Generator > Difficulty > Solvers list"
The first puzzle generated in < 2 min requires X-Wing only.
The second puzzle however requires an Empty Rectangle.

Here some puzzles requiering N/H-Singles, Intersections, N/H-Subsets and X-Wing ONLY.
Turned the Empty Rectangle solver off and in "Options > Preferences... > Generator > Difficulty > Solvers list" set Empty Rectangle = 0.
Each puzzle took 0.3-18 minutes to generate, i.e. definitely slower than when allowing Empty Rectangle also.
But one puzzle was generated in 20 seconds.
And once after 25 minutes JSudoku broke off an attempt asked me to start all over again.


001000500000231000608000400000103000000000870400500006300000000060020000010470000
900003007508000000000005204241090080000080170000030000000007000000000760000400000
000009000000060000000008000305000900000000053901000800000007000000090000000005000
040780000080020000900000000100300009000000720000804000705000100000165000003000200
000600000000000290000004000000050000000040760726080050000005307402000000300007002


002040000000506007800030020060010000103800500070000139000083000009004000030001000
302005060000060034801040000000702008000000390094008000000400601000100000000000209
000089000000200000000007000080000205400000009901000060000700000000004000000520000
907000000000008000305006000000600910069000000200504000000040605470010000050300401
000100070000300100000420000926000030008001605000030090010050008200804000000010300


000481000001000540020007030200000809500000400107004000050130000072000000000900000
900006000000000903006002008050010020000060004079050000000900600000701000000000410
000060000000700000000050000040000000503000000000000514000007000000009000000005000
300000000000103000006005000000000190000418000102000050050000207000200001069040000
000008620000003050000001090000020000000500260529000000300060007782030000000000400


600400030000001020809000000000060507406050000000170600090002000000900000060007000
921000000000200006000500709037040000100005040000000807000300900000000530000401000
000000000000300000000780000040009006307000100090005007000940000000600000000000000
070003000000900000080005000000540700605010000000060309302000000000001040100200060
000205000000000530000300900000000602500008070096010000000400305000500006745000000


050090070000060004930040000000800901070905000005000300500004000000007000307000000
803010020000030750004000030000005103587000000040008000000300607000900000000600302
000001000000009000000003000807020009000000000600090502000300000000900000000800000
708005000000009000409002000000900040000000896906300000040000500035080000090050402
000000903000900000000100008002000600000609020104007000000020054700090000020080030


800000910000500000300608000060080000040050000000000175006002000000007000907000000
000009015605000090700801000000000900002070600500030000050000060000000104030102000
000600050000300000000000030000020000004000208306050000000007000090000000000005000
010209000080000090060004000000000706400000000002081000000000069105300000000900004
000000090000000800000010020006000900000938000020700400000006007200500003345000000


100000027000124000602000000070060000000341000001000400050002000700000000060703000
000601008026008070040003090500070002000560000600000804000000300000000509000215000
000800000000500000000060000007000093000109000490000700000050000000006000000008000
000682000409000000008000000307000002000024000200050001080100060040200170900408000
000509010000000004000800020004000200000265000000090050000000102000327000890000006

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Normal: [D  Y-m-d,  G:i]     PM->email: [D, d M Y H:i:s]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:38 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 868
EDIT: This post has been deleted, edited (blue text) and resubmitted.

The file nj3h_2.xml produces puzzles with minimum 1 X-Wing AND minimum 1 Empty Rectangle :
http://cid-c136798e52d0119c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/SudokuSolver/nj3h/nj3h%7C_2.xml

The Empty Rectangle solver MUST BE PLACED BEFORE the X-Wing solver!

After checking the second puzzle more thoroughly I found out that it requires X-Wing only. Hence my conclusion is that JSudoku cannot generate puzzles, which is guaranteed to require both X-Wing and Empty Rectangle, regardless of in which order the two solvers X-Wing and Empty Rectangle are placed.
  1. Assume the X-Wing solver is placed before the Empty Rectangle solver. JSudoku will generate a puzzle which it solves using both solvers, but when switching the sequence of the two solvers only Empty Rectangle is required, i.e. the puzzle has red herring X-Wing.
  2. Assume the Empty Rectangle solver is placed before the X-Wing solver. JSudoku will generate a puzzle which it solves using both solvers, but when switching the sequence of the two solvers only X-Wing is required, i.e. the puzzle has red herring Empty Rectangle.


Import nj3h_2.xml into:

1) Solvers > Import Solvers' List...    (right click in the Solvers Tab Window)
Image

2) Options > Preferences... > Generator > Difficulty (Select Difficulty [gets a blue background] and click on the Folder icon now visible)
Image


To speed up puzzle generation, minimize all restrictions:
Number of guesses = 0-50 = FULL RANGE
Singles bottleneck = 0 = FULL RANGE
Symmetries = ALL
Number of givens = FULL RANGE
Overlapping grids = CAN HAVE GIVENS

Here two puzzles, which both took approx. 10-12 minutes to generate:


000304000004000805000000209000120090058000000000040300706000000080006000400502000
000603000903000002400001000010500900005060200090000700000000050000090000000030098
000600000000200000000500000702005000000000006306000000000020000000000007000083000
000302000400005000000000000009000000000600108700903000000050306016090000070000080
000800040007000020000500080000050800780040000000090706000006005000307009301000000


000000591069000000000085000400100060100000705000602000004000000008740000002069000
000095000905000800000740300000001030803000400040806000000080007000000050000009004
000021000000500000000009000000000109035010000000000703000007000000400000000096000
007045000001690000008000000000904000100000704800100030000071000024000000000000268
000007001000000030000030005060408000702000600000005070000340700803000900000086000

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Normal: [D  Y-m-d,  G:i]     PM->email: [D, d M Y H:i:s]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:44 pm 
Offline
Expert
Expert

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:07 am
Posts: 105
Boerge,

I have sent you an email this evening. I have been away from being able to tes tthings and respond properly for a couple of days this week.

It is obvious that you have put a lot of work into working with JSudoku's generating function. I am impressed at the number of "good" puzzles you were able to create.

As I mentioned in my email to you, I do get a lot of hard disk action whenever JSudoku is in the puzzle generating phase. I wonder if others do as well.

I have saved the puzzles you created and will begin working on them. Of course, I will put the xml files to good use and try to see if I have the same luck you did in getting good puzzles.

Thanks again for all the hard work you put into helping me.

Regards,
George


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:15 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:32 am
Posts: 868
George,

Thanks for your kind email.

And thanks a lot for asking for help. I have a couple of times very briefly looked into generating puzzles with JSudoku, but first after seeing your screen shot I realized that one has to import a solvers' xml file into the generator and then figured out how to do it. This time really putting my mind to it, it went surprisingly fast, 10-15 minutes. When generating the puzzles, I had JSudoku running on a separate monitor and did other things "in parallel" on another monitor. So I have actually not put in that much work.

I think I now have a fairly good understanding of how to generate puzzles with JSudoku. Could be that in the future some of the regular puzzles I post will have been generated by JSudoku. Explicitly selecting the advanced techniques for my Master puzzles sounds very tempting. Can hopefully generate puzzles with some very nasty techniques like Uniqueness Test 6 and Grouped Chains :twisted: ;)
nj3h wrote:
As I mentioned in my email to you, I do get a lot of hard disk action whenever JSudoku is in the puzzle generating phase. I wonder if others do as well.
In your email you write that you are using Win 98SE on a 600 MHz computer. Assuming that this PC does not have that much main memory (< 512 MB) and JSudoku being a pretty memory hungry application, I assume that the hard disk action you experience is due to swapping. On a PC with 2-4 GB of main memory JSudoku does normally not cause any extraordinary hard disk activity. But if I let JSudoku sit unused a while and start several other applications and/or browse through an Internet newspaper in Firefox and launch a bunch of articles (> 10-20) I want to look at in more detail in separate tabs, I experience massive hard disk activity and swapping when getting back to Jsudoku later. It can take up to 10 seconds or more before JSudoku responds and works normally again.

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Normal: [D  Y-m-d,  G:i]     PM->email: [D, d M Y H:i:s]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group