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 Post subject: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:34 am 
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Can either SudokuSolver or JSudoku handle this puzzle (from Uwe Wiedemann)?

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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:19 am 
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I know SudokuSolver can't handle the second of these because it's a jigsaw gattai, but what about the first one? Can JSudoku handle one or both?

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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:26 am 
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None are currently supported by JSudoku as such

Uwe's Conjoined Sudoku is very much constrained because the rows and columns share 8 cells. LoL / Twin nonets simplifies here to 1 cell. To play it with JSudoku, You may start with a vanilla 3x3 sudoku (simple grid) and define 9 extra groups for the orange nonets with cells in R10 and C10 in wrap around order -> becomes R1 and C1.

Note: Uwe designs a lot of variants. Some are so unusual / exotic that it's unlikely any software will add support for them. Part of the game for me is to understand what's special with them and findout if they can be played with a software.
Caution: Part of the game is also to findout if Uwe's puzzles have a unique solution or not :whistle: :rambo:

I'll add support for the japanese gattai-near-2 variant in the next realease.

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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Jean-Christophe wrote:
Uwe's Conjoined Sudoku is very much constrained because the rows and columns share 8 cells. LoL / Twin nonets simplifies here to 1 cell. To play it with JSudoku, You may start with a vanilla 3x3 sudoku (simple grid) and define 9 extra groups for the orange nonets with cells in R10 and C10 in wrap around order -> becomes R1 and C1.

OK--I just wanted something that can work out the pencil marks (candidates) for me (I make too many mistakes, which takes the fun out of sudoku).

Quote:
Note: Uwe designs a lot of variants. Some are so unusual / exotic that it's unlikely any software will add support for them.

Ahh. I didn't know that he designed those himself. Maybe he can help with the pencil marks? ;) Some of the puzzles on his site (and on a few others) are too exotic even for me. (I'm not fond of the "chess moves" varieties, for instance.)

Quote:
Caution: Part of the game is also to findout if Uwe's puzzles have a unique solution or not.

Oh, so some of his puzzles have been known to have more than one solution?

Quote:
I'll add support for the japanese gattai-near-2 variant in the next realease.

That's the variant with only one box overlapping (not sure what's meant by "near-2")? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:38 pm 
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enxio27 wrote:
Can either SudokuSolver or JSudoku handle this puzzle (from Uwe Wiedemann)?

Image

You can easily solve that puzzle in JSudoku by first pasting the following vanilla puzzle:
Code:
....92...
...7.....
53.6...8.
..1...6..
3...6..5.
2.8..3...
...2...6.
6.5...1.2
......5..

And then drawing 4 3x3 cages in r234567c234567. The other 5 cages will automatically be implied just like the 5 hidden windows in Windoku.

That puzzle is also very interesting, needing a cascade of tricky moves such as x-wing, xy-wing, y-wing & turbot fish to finish. :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:21 pm 
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udosuk wrote:
You can easily solve that puzzle in JSudoku by first pasting the following vanilla puzzle:

And then drawing 4 3x3 cages in r234567c234567. The other 5 cages will automatically be implied just like the 5 hidden windows in Windoku.

OK, I'll have to play around with that.

Quote:
That puzzle is also very interesting, needing a cascade of tricky moves such as x-wing, xy-wing, y-wing & turbot fish to finish. :ugeek:

YIKES!!!! :shock: I guess I won't be doing this puzzle anytime soon! X-wing and XY-wing I can handle--the other two are beyond me right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:23 pm 
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enxio27 wrote:
Jean-Christophe wrote:
Uwe's Conjoined Sudoku is very much constrained because the rows and columns share 8 cells. LoL / Twin nonets simplifies here to 1 cell. To play it with JSudoku, You may start with a vanilla 3x3 sudoku (simple grid) and define 9 extra groups for the orange nonets with cells in R10 and C10 in wrap around order -> becomes R1 and C1.

OK--I just wanted something that can work out the pencil marks (candidates) for me (I make too many mistakes, which takes the fun out of sudoku).

Image
Code:
+-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1478    14678   467     | 1348    9       2       | 347     1347    13457   |
| 149     2489    249     | 7       13458   1458    | 2349    12349   13469   |
| 5       3       249     | 6       14      14      | 2479    8       1479    |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
| 479     459     1       | 4589    24578   45789   | 6       23479   3479    |
| 3       479     479     | 149     6       14789   | 24789   5       14789   |
| 2       45679   8       | 1459    1457    3       | 479     1479    1479    |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+
| 14789   1479    3479    | 2       14578   145789  | 4789    6       4789    |
| 6       4789    5       | 3489    3478    478     | 1       3479    2       |
| 14789   124789  23479   | 13489   3478    4678    | 5       3479    34789   |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------+

enxio27 wrote:
Quote:
Note: Uwe designs a lot of variants. Some are so unusual / exotic that it's unlikely any software will add support for them.

Ahh. I didn't know that he designed those himself. Maybe he can help with the pencil marks? ;) Some of the puzzles on his site (and on a few others) are too exotic even for me. (I'm not fond of the "chess moves" varieties, for instance.)

Quote:
Caution: Part of the game is also to findout if Uwe's puzzles have a unique solution or not.

Oh, so some of his puzzles have been known to have more than one solution?
YES. Udosuk and I found several invalid puzzles designed by Uwe :brickwall: But, Uwe did fix them in the meantime. I guess his favorite smiley is :oops:
Uwe's Touchless Sudoku #1 (anti-king) is yet another puzzle he designed in 2006. Apparently no one ever tried to solve it, because it has 28 solutions. :whistle:

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"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes.


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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:48 pm 
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enxio27 wrote:
I know SudokuSolver can't handle the second of these because it's a jigsaw gattai, but what about the first one? Can JSudoku handle one or both?

Hidden Text:
Image

Yep, JSudoku can "handle" both.

For the top one, both subgrids have a unique solution on their own. You can just plug the following 2 grids one by one into JSudoku then add the diagonals, and start solving:
Code:
.6..7..3.
3..58...4
.....9...
.5....8..
74.....56
..3....7.
...7.....
4...68...
.2..5....

....3..5.
...72...8
.....6...
.9....7..
54.....32
..6....1.
...4.....
3...75..4
.5..9..7.

That said, the 1st one is diabolically hard to solve (probably requiring chains), while the 2nd one is substantially easier. So the sensible way to crack it is to solve the 2nd grid first, then plug in its r123c123 as r789c789 of the 1st grid. :idea:

As for the bottom puzzle, the story is different. Both of them have multiple solutions on their own and you need to transfer back and forth the common cell values between two 9x9 JSudoku windows. However the difficulty is relatively simple (just singles, subsets, intersections required).

To save you time, I'll provide some data for you to copy & paste:

To play the 1st grid, open a new grid of "9x9 Latin Square", then copy & paste the following pencilmark grid:
Code:
1346789 5 123478 1234789 1246789 1234678 12346789 12346789 134789
1346789 13678 13478 1478 146789 5 1346789 134789 2
1346789 123678 123478 12478 124678 1234678 134789 5 134789
178 1278 9 124578 3 12478 12478 1478 6
13678 9 12478 12478 12478 123478 5 1234678 13478
5 12378 12378 6 124789 123478 123478 123478 13478
13678 4 13578 123789 12789 123678 1368 13689 13589
13678 1378 134578 134578 1245678 9 123678 123678 1358
2 1378 6 1345789 145789 13478 1378 13478 13458

And then copy the following code to "Paste as Jigsaw Template":
Hidden Text:
1x9::k:11521:11521:11521:11522:11522:11522:11522:11522:11523:11521:11521:11521:11524:11522:11522:11522:11523:11523:11521:11521:11521:11524:11524:11522:11523:11523:11523:11525:11524:11524:11524:11524:11526:11526:11523:11523:11525:11525:11524:11524:11526:11526:11526:11527:11523:11525:11525:11525:11526:11526:11527:11527:11527:11527:11525:11525:11528:11526:11526:11527:11529:11529:11529:11525:11528:11528:11528:11527:11527:11529:11529:11529:11528:11528:11528:11528:11528:11527:11529:11529:11529:

Same deal for the 2nd grid:
Code:
1368 13689 13589 13589 134689 1345689 2 13456 7
123678 123678 1358 4 1236789 135689 35689 1356 1235
1378 13478 13458 123578 13468 134568 34568 9 12345
13578 13789 13589 135789 13489 2 3457 1345 6
1236 12369 7 1359 13469 3469 3469 8 12345
9 23678 3468 38 5 34678 1 2346 234
123678 5 12368 123789 2346789 346789 34689 12346 123489
4 12378 123589 6 123789 3789 3589 1235 123589
12368 123489 1234589 123589 123489 134589 345689 7 1234589

Hidden Text:
1x9::k:11521:11521:11521:11522:11523:11523:11523:11523:11523:11521:11521:11521:11522:11522:11523:11523:11523:11524:11521:11521:11521:11522:11525:11525:11523:11524:11524:11522:11522:11522:11522:11525:11525:11524:11524:11524:11526:11522:11525:11525:11525:11527:11527:11524:11524:11526:11526:11525:11525:11527:11527:11527:11527:11524:11526:11526:11526:11528:11527:11527:11529:11529:11529:11526:11526:11528:11528:11528:11527:11529:11529:11529:11526:11528:11528:11528:11528:11528:11529:11529:11529:

:ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: Conjoined Sudoku?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:05 am 
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Posts: 191
Location: London
udosuk wrote:
enxio27 wrote:
I know SudokuSolver can't handle the second of these because it's a jigsaw gattai, but what about the first one?

The WIP version of SudokuSolver will handle both of these - and the original Conjoined puzzle. I concur with the view that the Jigsaw twin puzzle is a nightmare to solve.

I'm still ironing out a few kinks in the updated program - the main focus on the update is to handle these type of hybrid puzzles.

Rgds
Richard


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