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Basic Operation Question
http://www.rcbroughton.co.uk/sudoku/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1022		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  nj3h [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Basic Operation Question
Hi Richard,


.1..3.5.95.7.1.....9...6.1.......3.594.....7...5...2.81..3.9.....4.7....7..6.8...
7.4.1..8.....8.9.4.1.4...3.1.9.......3.....458.6...3.....7.1..8....6.7.....8.4..9
....1.......2.3......4.8....78...24.2.......6.39...81....9.5......1.4.......6....
7..6.5.....3.9....6..7.2.....5...1.997.....5.......2.8.9...1.4.5.1.4.....6..7.9.1
...5.4..2....1.6.....9.6..52.7...9...4.....276.1.......7.1...4.....4.5.94.5.6..3.


The above is a standard samurai puzzle. When loaded into SS, Grid 2 (upper right), r5c1 shows a grayed 2 after hitting F10. I understand that only a 2 can go into this cell.

Then double clicking on the grayed 2, the 2 turns green and the pencil marks in r5c3 remain as a 27 and other 2 pencil marks in that block, row, and column maintain the 2 as well. Why doesn't the 2 in the 27 go away leaving just a pencil mark of a 7 and the other cells appropriately? What am I not understanding about program operation? It seems I have to hit UPDATE Pencil Marks (ctrl-U) to get this to happen. When I do this, I get a grayed out large 7 in R5C3, so the same think happens when double clicking on the 7. Now trying to recreate this situation the Updat Pencil Marks option is now disabled.

So two questions

1. How do I keep grayed out numbers from showing up? If it is a hidden single, I want to find it and not let the program find it. I have tried turning off show hidden singles, but there must be more to it than that.

2. Why don't the pencil marks automatically update?

Regards,
George
Author:  enxio27 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
nj3h wrote:
1. How do I keep grayed out numbers from showing up? If it is a hidden single, I want to find it and not let the program find it. I have tried turning off show hidden singles, but there must be more to it than that.

2. Why don't the pencil marks automatically update?


Try this:

On the Tools tab, turn on "Show Marks" and "Placement Feedback". Under "Display Options" on that same tab, put a tick/check mark in the box labeled "Standard Naked Size". After doing these, does it do what you want?

Out of curiosity, where did you get this Samurai puzzle? (I like to label my puzzles and keep track of which ones I've completed.)
Author:  nj3h [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
The instructions you provided solved the immediate issue I mentioned in my message. Thanks so much.

I do notice using SS that pencil mark elimination is not as "automatic" as SudoCue was (is). For example, placing a big number in a cell, the other cells where pencil marks are slated to be removed show up in yellow and the user then has to click somewhere on the grid to actually have them removed.

Also, big numbers placed in overlapping areas are not automatically placed when going to that overlapping area's other grid. The user has to manually place the singles that were placed in the other grid in the current grid.

I do not understand why this is not just flat out automatic. If you look clueless solver (for samurai since that is all that works for me), placements just automatically replace pencil marks immediately. Overlapping blocks were updated automatically. Pencil marks in just sudocue are eliminated immediately when a big number is placed.

I this this is my largest drawback to using SS in lieu of one of Ruud's programs for standard sudoku or samurai sudoku. Of course for any other overlapping variant, SS must be used and does a fine job except for the above mentioned points.

If Richard was to change anything in his program, this would be what I think needs to be changed. But that is just my opinion. LOL

You asked where the samurai puzzle came from. It was created in JSudoku with the solver set with techniques that I want to possibly be in a puzzle.

Regards,
George
Author:  enxio27 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
nj3h wrote:
I do notice using SS that pencil mark elimination is not as "automatic" as SudoCue was (is). For example, placing a big number in a cell, the other cells where pencil marks are slated to be removed show up in yellow and the user then has to click somewhere on the grid to actually have them removed.

Also, big numbers placed in overlapping areas are not automatically placed when going to that overlapping area's other grid. The user has to manually place the singles that were placed in the other grid in the current grid.

This is true. I guess it doesn't bother me very much because I do most of my solving on paper rather than from within the program. I resort to the program only if I happen to get stuck and I'm trying to determine whether I made a mistake or the puzzle is simply beyond my current capabilities. Otherwise, I use the program mainly to calculate pencil marks for me and print the puzzles out.

Quote:
I do not understand why this is not just flat out automatic.

Unfortunately, I can't answer that. That would be a Richard question.

Quote:
You asked where the samurai puzzle came from. It was created in JSudoku with the solver set with techniques that I want to possibly be in a puzzle.

I suspected that might be the case, but thanks for confirming. I'm in the process of solving the puzzle now (mainly an hour or so before bed each night).
Author:  enxio27 [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
George, what techniques did you have enabled when you generated that puzzle? I solved the other grids, but grid #4 is giving me a bit of trouble, and I'm thinking there's a required technique in there somewhere that's beyond my current skill set.
Author:  nj3h [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
Sorry for the little delay getting back. Was out running errands.

Both JS and SS indicate that an X-Wing and an Empty Rectangle are required to solve. According to SS, both of these techniques are in Grid 4.

Please look at the ER technique. It is an easy one to find with the naked eye.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
George
Author:  enxio27 [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
nj3h wrote:
Both JS and SS indicate that an X-Wing and an Empty Rectangle are required to solve.

Suspicions confirmed. I did find the X-wing (first one I've found in a LONG time that actually eliminated any candidates). I'll have to set this one aside until I can take the time to study out that ER technique.
Author:  nj3h [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
Good deal. The ER is less than 5 min to learn. Ruud turned me onto that a long, long time ago.
Author:  enxio27 [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
nj3h wrote:
Good deal. The ER is less than 5 min to learn. Ruud turned me onto that a long, long time ago.

For me, it's not enough to learn to spot a pattern. I need to understand how it works, and what the logic is behind it to eliminate candidates. That generally takes me a bit longer (not to mention finding an uninterrupted block of time to process it through my brain). :lol:

I've printed out several explanations (including Ruud's). I'll review them tonight, and hopefully finish off that last grid of your puzzle. :ok:
Author:  enxio27 [ Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic Operation Question
I did it! I still need a lot of practice on finding ERs, but I did find the one in that puzzle (without any help from SS :D ), worked through the logic in my head, and solved the rest of the puzzle.
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